Cleansing Fire

Defending Truth and Tradition in the Roman Catholic Church

Pope accepts Bishop Clark’s resignation – Bishop Cunningham (of Syracuse) named Apostolic Administrator

September 21st, 2012, Promulgated by b a

On the feast of St. Matthew, 68 days after his 75th birthday, 5 days after the 50th anniversary of his ordination to the priesthood, 33 years, 2 months, and 26 days after being ordained the bishop of Rochester, Pope Benedict XVI has accepted the resignation of Bishop Matthew Clark.  I’m sure I speak for everyone here when I say we wish him well in his retirement and will keep him in our prayers.  This Diocese of Rochester’s press release is here:

Issue Date: Friday, Sept. 21, 2012
Holy See accepts resignation of Rochester Bishop Matthew Clark;
Syracuse Bishop Robert J. Cunningham named Apostolic Administrator

ROCHESTER, New York – Pope Benedict XVI has accepted the resignation of Bishop of Rochester Matthew H. Clark. Bishop of Syracuse Robert J. Cunningham has been appointed as Apostolic Administrator of the Rochester Diocese until a new bishop is named at a later date.

The appointment is effective Friday, Sept. 21, 2012. Bishop Cunningham will oversee all aspects of the 12-county Diocese of Rochester, as well as continuing to lead the Diocese of Syracuse. Rev. Dr. Joseph A. Hart, who served as vicar general and moderator of the Pastoral Center under Bishop Clark, will be Bishop Cunningham’s delegate in the daily governance of the Diocese of Rochester.

Bishop Clark submitted his resignation on his 75th birthday on July 15, 2012, as is required of all diocesan bishops by church law. As the 8th Bishop of Rochester, Bishop Clark served from June 1979 until today, second only in length of tenure to Rochester’s first bishop, Most Rev. Bernard J. McQuaid.

Bishop Cunningham, a native of Buffalo who was ordained a priest in 1969, served as the 13th Bishop of Ogdensburg from 2004 until his appointment as the 10th Bishop of Syracuse in April 2009.

“I am greatly honored, and humbled, to serve as Apostolic Administrator of this diocese,”said Bishop Cunningham. “I ask for the prayers of all that I might serve you well, as long as need be. I will be traveling weekly between the Dioceses of Syracuse and Rochester, and hope to make acquaintance with many new friends.

“Above all, I want to help wherever I can, to be the solid bridge that spans the time between Bishop Clark and whomever the 9th Bishop of Rochester may be. I do not know when that will happen, but I do know I am at this Diocese’s service as long as it takes.” Bishop Clark said, “I assure the good and faithful people in our 12 counties that the governance of this Diocese is in excellent hands. Now that provision has been made for the pastoral care of our diocese, I am peaceful; and I look forward with lively curiosity to a new phase of my life and ministry after more than 33 years as Bishop of Rochester. I humbly thank God for having lived during this incredible time and for the opportunity to shepherd a beautiful, faithful and inspired people. Words cannot express my gratitude to the people of this Diocese, whom I love very much.”

The Apostolic Nuncio, the Pope’s representative and ambassador in the United States, and the Holy See’s Congregation for Bishops are responsible for identifying possible candidates to be the new Bishop of Rochester. They present their thoughts directly to the Holy Father, who makes the final determination and appointment. The process can take several months.

More than 300,000 Roman Catholics reside in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Rochester, which was established in March 1868. The counties contained within the Diocese are: Monroe, Livingston, Wayne, Ontario, Seneca, Cayuga, Yates, Tompkins, Schuyler, Tioga, Chemung and Steuben.

Interestingly enough, I received our CMA letter in the mail just yesterday.

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91 Responses to “Pope accepts Bishop Clark’s resignation – Bishop Cunningham (of Syracuse) named Apostolic Administrator”

  1. Sassy says:

    Congratulations on some long awaited and welcomed news. I will keep Bishop Clark and the Diocese of Rochester in my prayers as you undergo this very exciting transition. My prayers are for a very orthodox bishop to be appointed by the Holy Father to grace the DOR to restore its once rich Catholic tradition.

  2. Mike says:

    The announcement was made official at a 10:00 am press conference. See here.

  3. Diane Harris says:

    Indeed, Bishop Cunningham of Syracuse was named to be the (interim) apostolic administrator.

  4. Bernie says:

    Nice to hear that things are moving along. I’m not really familiar with Bishop Cunningham.

  5. Jim says:

    Wow Great News! Bishop Cunningham is as conservative as Bishop Clark is liberal….

  6. Scott W. says:

    Wow Great News! Bishop Cunningham is as conservative as Bishop Clark is liberal….

    That’s impossible because certain posters here have repeatedly poured out ASCII that the next bishop will be nothing but a giant disappointment to the knuckle-dragging, goose-stepping contributors to CF. 😀

  7. Ron says:

    That it was done so quickly and with no new bishop set to take up the reins immediately could be taken as a “repudiation” of sorts of Bishop Clark.

  8. DNC says:

    Here in Syracuse, Bishop Cunningham has done great work, particularly an increase in vocations since his appointment in 2009. As Apostolic Administrator, I don’t know how much he can do to change the heterodox culture of the your Diocese as a whole, but it’s a step in the right direction for the good people of Rochester. While I certainly did not agree with much of anything Bishop Clark did as Bishop, I wish him the best in retirement.

  9. Jim says:

    Sounds like sour grapes, there, Scott. Ron, I think you are exactly right.

  10. Richard Thomas says:

    All I know is the majority of priests in the DOS are liberal. And, under Bishop Cunningham, the DOS has united with Albany and Rochester in using St. Bernards as their theological institure to train lay people. There are advertisements in the “Catholic Sun”: Catholic newspaper and pastors make announcements in the pulpit. And there are dissident nuns and priests whol contribute to the “Catholic Sun”.

    So not all is well in Syracuse.

  11. Scott W. says:

    That it was done so quickly and with no new bishop set to take up the reins immediately could be taken as a “repudiation” of sorts of Bishop Clark.

    Sounds right. Also, is there also the possibility of Syracuse absorbing the DOR? I’m not savvy on such things at all, but it seems possible considering how much brick and mortar has been shed under +Clark’s reign. (i.e. under the idea there isn’t as much to absorb so might as well.)

  12. Ron says:

    On the other hand, maybe there is a health issue of which we are not aware that led to the unusual suddenness of this. Whatever the case, I will pray for Bishop Clark – and for Bishop Cunningham.

  13. raymondfrice says:

    “So not all is well in Syracuse.”

    Source??

  14. y2kscotty says:

    I see you have a “poll” to see whom we’d vote for if we had a choice. I picked Fr Joe Hart. But, here’s a name I’d really like to see: Fr. Alexander Bradshaw, who is newly retired. He’d have 5 years as a bishop, maybe as much as 6 or 7 if the Pope doesn’t accept the mandatory letter of resignation right away…. and we’d have someone who can give outstanding homilies and talks. He could be an excellent catalyst for evangelization in the diocese.
    Regarding the quick acceptance of Bishop Clark’s letter of resignation, I did hear from someone (should we call it a rumor – yep, that’s what it is) that Bishop Clark’s health is not all that good and that he himself was hoping for a quick release from responsibility.
    And regarding the “Bishop Perry Watch”, forget it – it won’t happen. It’ll be someone from the Northeast.
    It has been noticed that vocations for the priesthood are up in Syracuse. But, they are up in Rochester, too. As for the quality of those “in the pipeline”, I don’t know. “Liberal”, “conservative” – the labels may not be all that useful in some (maybe most)cases.

  15. Dr. K says:

    “Interestingly enough, I received our CMA letter in the mail just yesterday.”

    Sounds like a celebration donation is in order!

  16. JLo says:

    Did you notice that even +Clark was surprised! I don’t think it’s about health at all.!!!
    “The Vatican’s naming of an apostolic administrator was unusual, as typically a resignation is accepted pending the naming of a new bishop, Clark noted.”

    …so I am very grateful for what seems a message to the Rochester faithful from the larger Church that the ordeal foisted on us by the untruths of progressivism is over! I believe we can now fully expect a strong, orthodox bishop! Alleluia!!

    +JMJ

  17. Scott W. says:

    Interesting. We got the unsubstantiated gossip that Bishop Martino’s resignation for health reasons wasn’t really for health reasons (*nudge *nudge *wink *wink); now apparently there is unsubstantiated gossip that bishop Clark’s getting shown the door after the bare-butt-minimum of time allowed for collegial courtesy IS for health reasons. Ahh, the lulz never stop.

  18. Richard Thomas says:

    Personal conversation from an older priest in Syracuse who is faithful to the teachings of the Majesterium and after routinely reading the “Catholic Sun”. Fr. Jenks, a contributer to the paper, was the editor of “America ” magazine that is extremely liberal. The Vatican ordered his removal from the magazine.

    And there is a nun who is one of the people who was associated with the “Nun’s bus”, a group of dissident nuns traveling all across the country telling anyone and everyone how wrong the bishops were when they opposed O’bama Care and how wrong the Vatican has been in attempting to control the large dissident nun prganization.

  19. Richard Thomas says:

    I do have to say that there is no attempt to wreck the many beautiful churches in the DOS. There is no attempt to punish or remove traditional priests from their role as pastor.

    There is 24/7 Euchristic Adoration in Utica. And Mother Mary Anne Cope from Utica is being cannonized. (pardon the promotion).

    In the Carosel Mall in Syracuse, there is a Catholic Chapel with daily Eucharistic Adoration: I wondered why more dioceses don’t bring the concept of a mall chapel into the equasion. In Boston,St. Francic Chapel was right in a busy pedestrial corrider. There are so many stories of people, absent from the sacraments for years, suddenly going in and going to confession. The mall chapel attracts young people. And the chapel has 3 or 4 masses a day, and a Spanish mass.

    Every year there are confrences for husbands and wives held for thousands in Syracuse. Many from the DOR attend.

    There are no female homilists.

    Dignity is not in the DOS.

    So, although I complain, things in the DOS are not as nearly as bad as in the DOR.

    So,

  20. Eliza10 says:

    This is good, encouraging news! I am glad! I wasn’t sure about Syracuse because of their St. Bernard’s connection but it does sound like things are not as outright bad as they are here. Perhaps their Bishop keeping a lid on it instead of watering it? Just guessing. We are finally done with Clark. Its finally over! This is a real cause for celebration! It can only get better from here! I feel grateful to the Pope; this feels like a grace.

  21. Rich Leonardi says:

    That it was done so quickly and with no new bishop set to take up the reins immediately could be taken as a “repudiation” of sorts of Bishop Clark.

    If that’s the case, we have the perseverance of the Rochester faithful to thank for it. It was they who first brought Bishop Clark to the attention of then-Cardinal Ratzinger during the Father Callan scandal and have kept him apprised of the situation in the DOR ever since.

  22. A Catholic says:

    This was step one. Prayers for Bishop Clark as he begins his retirement. Let’s all continue to pray that the Holy Spirit guide the next step and our DOR patron St. John Fisher intercede for us.

  23. Dr. K says:

    I assure everyone that this early resignation had nothing to do with the bishop’s health. Bp. Clark fully intended to serve as long as a year to 14 months after July 15th.

  24. Sassy says:

    I would have to agree with Dr. K. A family member “in the know” mentioned that he was prepared to be there for at least another two years because, “the Pope didn’t have enough bishops to draw from”. I giggled internally when I heard that.

  25. Scott W. says:

    “the Pope didn’t have enough bishops to draw from”.

    Lol. He could have always installed a trained macaque. It couldn’t do any worse damage.

  26. brother of penance says:

    I need help.

    Please help me understand…..was Bishop Cunningham lying when he said that he agreed with
    Dolan that Clark is Great and the Diocese has been left in excellent condition?

    I am not kidding. I am having a real problem with what Cunningham said publicly.

  27. Gretchen says:

    I believe Bishop Clark stated on more than one occasion that he anticipated being around for up to two years after submitting his resignation, since the average replacement time was anywhere from 10 months to 2 years.

  28. Abaccio says:

    Keep Calm, folks! Think about it. The Holy Father accepted +Clark’s resignation essentially immediately. THAT NEVER HAPPENS. It is almost ALWAYS accepted “Nunc Pro Tunc.” The message has been sent, if you are good at reading it. This quick retirement is a clear repudiation of the past 33 years.

    Steps of the transition to limit disobedience to new Bishop:
    1) Let former Bishop serve out his tenure
    2) Send local metropolitan to spout some rather innocuous praise for the Bishop at the gathering of the Bishop’s inner circle.
    3) Accept the Bishop’s resignation darn near immediately, without a successor named.
    4) Transition with somebody else “in charge” until new Bishop is appointed.
    5) Let that guy do some dirty work, so it doesn’t get blamed on the new Bishop.
    6) Appoint new Bishop in 3-6 months (my guess).

  29. Eliza10 says:

    This afternoon I stopped in the grocery store and came out to a deluge. I waited and waited for it to let up a bit before I dashed to my car, but I still got pretty soaked. Sometime later, just as I approached a pretty area near home — maybe it matters, so I will say – I was approaching the front of Our Lady of Mercy High School – just as they began discussing on 1460 Catholic radio the surprising news of the Pope accepting Clark’s retirement, and of Bishop Cunningham being assigned as temporary administrator (and there was the confusion over “Temporary Administrator??” – this being, apparently, not the _usual_ course, so, it does feel to me like the Pope is giving our long-suffering Diocese a merciful grace).

    At this moment the sky brightened, and everything in this beauty was fresh and lovely and new as after a rain. And I thought how this moment so illustrated this news. We have, like after the deluge, been washed clean of Bishop Clark’s dissident reign. He is gone, gone as if with that blinding rain, and we now we are left with the bright clean freshness of a new beginning, with all its bright possibilities.

    It sure seems like retired Bishop Clark is getting a LOT of prayer! At least if you read here! And I must pray, too, as God made him my Bishop for a time — for the whole twelve years that I have been Catholic. And so much of those years were darkly overshadowed with trying to figure why our Diocese is so NOT-Catholic, which always pointed back to the same culprit – Bishop Clark!. It was so hard to explain to my Evangelical friends that what they see locally, what their neighbors grew up with (often, what THEY grew up with), REALLY isn’t what Catholic is! Honestly!

    And in those years I was divorced, had to return to work and stop homeschooling my son, and having left my close Evangelical fellowship where I once enjoyed shared faith, I now faced instead a Diocese where some of my most life-giving Catholic practices, so very precious to me because they came at such a price (I gave up a Christian tradition I loved and lost people I loved to gain them) were SCORNED by the very Diocesan Priests and Deacons who were ordained to support them! Why, why, why, I wondered? It was back to Bishop Clark! The buck stopped there.

    If only my son could get a Catholic education – that would have been such a comfort to me! It would be worth sacrificing everything for! But I could not put my son in a Diocesan Catholic school – which in this Diocese are clearly secular private schools, Catholic in name only. I didn’t want my son thinking this was Catholic. Thanks a lot, Bishop Clark!

    And I could not even put him in CCD classes, because I SAW the books they used! What drivel! Why? Because Bishop Clark took complete charge of any texts used. Good Catholic teaching was strictly forbidden, even with private funding for the texts! “Catholic-Lite” ONLY was allowed, by order of the Bishop!!! And the CCD teachers I met, bar one, were glaringly uncatechized! Why? These and the masses of uncatechized at Mass and the un-Catholic lay-persons running parishes? That was due to Clark ON PURPOSE shirking his duty to catechize the Diocese these past thirty odd years.

    So I have to pray for him now, and its a dirty business for me because my heart does not feel charitable towards the man who shirked his duty. So I pray the way I pray for another who betrayed. I acknowledge my heart is not good enough to pray as I ought, and ask Mary to pray the prayers for me instead, with her perfect heart Full of Grace. And I ask her to pray for Bishops Clark’s soul.

    So no doubt we will all be good Catholics and pray for our ex-Bishops soul.

    Lets also pray now for our new Bishop, wherever he is. He is somewhere, so let us now bless him with prayer!
    ____________

    P.S. Maybe our new administrator will allow us to use good Catholic texts in CCD classes!

  30. raymondfrice says:

    All Cunningham is going to do is watch the food on the stove until the real cook arrives. I only hope the “Curia” is better at hiring “cooks” than they were butlers.

  31. raymondfrice says:

    Eliza 10:

    “Why, why, why, I wondered? It was back to Bishop Clark! The buck stopped there.”
    NO!! In the Roman Catholic Church the buck stops with the pope!! Our bishops are not independent of his authority.

    “But I could not put my son in a Diocesan Catholic school – which in this Diocese are clearly secular private schools, Catholic in name only.”
    This statement is an affront to the dedicated staff at St Mary’s School in Canandaigua where the children go to Mass on a regular basis and do community service for the Church.

    “ask Mary to pray the prayers for me instead.” As in an earlier post of mine, pray that Jesus will give you the grace to forgive but continue to do your own praying.

    My prayer is that Christ will give you the peace that the world cannot give.

  32. Richard Thomas says:

    I remember Archbishop Jadet, the one who I think was responsible for appointing Archbishop Weakland, Bishop Clark and Bishop Hubbard and a whole host of other bishops, promoting homosexuality and all things of dissent, many of whom hd to resign; Father Drinan, the Jesuit who was in the House of Reprsentatives who voted for partial birth abortion; Reveran John McCormick, the editor of the dissenting Magazine America; and Cardinal Bernadin. All were non repentent to the end. Now I don’t know what state their souls were in when they died,( I am in labor and Almighty God is management), but I only cringe if they died unrepentent. If someone, in a position of authority, opens his or her heart and receives the grace of God, I might think they might be made aware of all the evil they promoted. And, like Mary Madgeline, in today’s gospel, they would have been forgiven much and with their tears, wash the feet of Jesus. And it would have been wonderful if they would have made some sort of public acknowledgment of their errors.

    But it seems “only the good die young”! I wonder if, like the parable of the fig tree, that many in sin, are allowed to live to an old age, in order for Almighty God to allow them to repent, even if they refuse his grace, many times over. Now that’s mercy!

    But I am sure Almighty God would love a deathbed confession, even without public acknowledgment of one’s errant ways for He wants all of us with Him.

    I pray for all priests, especially Bishop Calrk and all dissenting priests, that they will come to know God’s love and mercy, that they may see the fruits of their errant ways and that they may live exemplary lives that are inspirations to us all.

    As stated by many holy saints: The road to hell is paved with the souls of many priests, bishops and cardinals.

  33. Eliza10 says:

    raymondfrice: Yes the Church has the final say, I knw that, elsewise I never would have left my Protestant comfort to become Catholic in Rohcester. My question was why our DIOCESE is the way it is. That was becasue of Bishop Clark. He was where the buck stopped for all the local offenses I observed. That is what I meant.

    As to St. Marys, it may well be quite nice. I has confined to look in the Rochester area, and as nice as the folks were who ran the schools, they were running them nice, not Cathoilic. Kind of like Clark! A lot like Clark, actually. Its just the knwon truth around here.

    The public schools are also really big into community service, so you don’t need Catholic for that. I am curious, though – how “regular” is Mass at St. Mary’s? It _should_ be weekly. It was NOT weekly in the Rochester Diocesan Catholic schools. Is St. Mary’s the exception?? How regular is confession St. Mary’s? It was not-at-all in Diocesan Catholic schools. Is St Mary’s somehow different?

    They are very nice people running and going to the schools though, and nice families who want their children to have that private school experience. Its a perk to have your kids “above the fray”. And there must be some truly Catholic teachers among the truly dissident ones, too.

    If I had extra money to throw around and I had a Catholic husband helping me teach my son what the Catholic schools purposely leave out, I might have considered Diocesan schools for that pleasant, nice, private school experience. But I know I made the right choice to avoid it, and I would make the same decision today.

    Jesus has given me the grace to forgive. We are NOT called to conjure lovey-dovey feelings towards some person who is hostile and offensive to what we hold dear. We ARE called to love our enemies, which naturally would include those who are enemies to what is dear to us, but the word for love in scripture for that is Christian Charity, and NOT Eros love. And so, I obey as I am called, and I am doing the greatest charity for Clark by asking Mary to pray my prayers with her perfect heart. How can I possibly give Clark more than that? Its priceless what I give. And I forgive! I do not know what you think is so lacking in my forgiveness. My priest does not find it lacking, and I think he knows better.

    Jesus has given me buckets of the peace that the world doesn’t give. He has given me the great grace of having lost a lot of worldly things dear to me so that I would truly know His heavenly peace.

  34. Dr. K says:

    “Accept the Bishop’s resignation darn near immediately, without a successor named.”

    Considering that the Vatican shuts down from July through early September, his resignation was essentially accepted immediately. Bp. Clark, according to YNN, was informed two weeks ago that he was going to retire on this date.

    It appears the Holy Father extended Bp. Clark the courtesy of celebrating this Sunday’s Mass of thanksgiving before giving him the boot. Otherwise, he probably would have been gone with Bp. Bruskewitz last weekend.

  35. raymondfrice says:

    To all:

    Today was a significant day in the history of the Diocese of Rochester. Bishop Clark’s tenure as the bishop, be it good or bad, has come to an end and is now over. We have a choice of moving on from this point to a positive future or we can, as they did with Pope Formosus in the early Church, constantly resurrect the corpse of the past and continue to judge and vilify it.

    Benedict the 16 th is still ultimately responsible for our diocese and Bishop Cunningham is now responsible for the day to day operations and has accepted accountability for what goes on here from today onward.

  36. Hopefull says:

    Bishop Bruskewitz remained for over 2 years from his resignation, and until his successor was named.

    Bishop Tod Brown stayed for 10 months after his resignation, and until his successor was named.

    Bishop Clark stayed for just over 2 months, most of which was Pope Benedict’s vacation(and most Vatican offices closed) and his resignation was accepted well before a successor is named. We should also note that apparently the input of the Presbyteral Council was not considered either, and Pope Benedict wasted no time on that kind of proposal or consideration.

    I’m hoping for “a bishop by Christmas.”

  37. TenderTruth says:

    brother of penance:

    You asked for “help”. You wondered whether Bishop Cunningham was lying when he said that he agreed with Dolan.

    Perhaps not. I’m in the Syracuse diocese and I commented on Dr. K’s post which follows this one. My comment lists some events that show that Bishop Clark and Cunningham were already working together. Perhaps it will help.

  38. raymondfrice says:

    Hopefull:

    Knowing the speed of the Vatican , you may find the only bishop coming to Rochester at Christmas will be Santa Clause (AKA the Bishop of Myra).

  39. raymondfrice says:

    Brother of Penance:”I am having a real problem with what Cunningham said publicly.”

    I am sorry that you missed one of the lectures at the “Fortnight of Freedom” held in June at Notre Dame Retreat House. When the speaker, aged 12 at the time of the incident and an altar boy, told his pastor that President Kennedy lied in one of his speeches, the monsignor replied, “It’s an election year.”

    What was he supposed to say on television:” the diocese is in a financial shambles and no one knows where the money is going, all the clergy are new age/ modernist heretics, all the religious women are ‘feminazzi’, gay pride people are in a secret bunker under 1150 Buffalo Road and are whispering messages through the walls, all the laity have stuffed their ears with cotton so as to block out the uninspired preaching and nothing has come from the pulpits since Sheen boarded the last flight out of Rochester close to 40 years ago?”
    This was the public media and prudence or common sense tells you to you hide your dirty underwear because the public doesn’t want to see it.

    No matter what is said, the people of God, AKA THE CHURCH, are trying the best they can and the poor are still being fed and the corporal and spiritual works of mercy are still being done and there are still priests doing humanly impossible jobs under sometimes hellish circumstances.
    Now I will get off my soapbox (I do not mean pedestal!!.)

  40. brother of penance says:

    TenderTruth, thank you.

    I did read what you commented on Dr. K’s post.

    Sometimes it seems that the hierarchy is the “good old boys club”.

    With my whole heart, however, I accept Sacred Tradition which includes the hierarchy.
    I am waiting on the Lord and hoping in his Name.

    I know Bishop Clark personally. He is always kind and gracious.
    But, a great bishop? NO, not in my opinion.

    While I am disappointed that both Dolan and Cunningham publicly announced their brother bishop to be great, I will not give in to discouragement.

    Our help is in the Name of the LORD.

    Thanks again, TenderTruth. Best regards to you and all of your brothers and sisters in Syracuse.

  41. brother of penance says:

    Ok, raymondfrice, I get it.

    But I do not like it.

    Perhaps on television Cunningham could have said something about the Son of God, our Savior the Lord Jesus Christ. I would have; but then again I don’t have to please or impress anyone.

    Thanks for your summary description of our diocese, raymondfrice. I find it more accurate than Cunningham’s “in excellent condition”.

    Grace and Peace to you.

  42. y2kscotty says:

    I took the this almost immediate acceptance to be a public insult to the Diocese of Rochester and to the good people we have here. It’s not all about Bishop Clark. It’s about all of us. And I think we have all been kicked in the teeth by a faceless bureaucracy and another crowd of back-slapping sycophants and their guffaws and bonhomie as they stick the knife in further.
    Anyway – the bishops and priests who are named above as possible Ordinaries are too young. Do we want our next bishop to be around for 20 or 30 years? Look around for someone in the Northeast.

  43. Mike says:

    y2kscotty,

    That’s odd. I see it as a public vindication of all the faithful Catholics of this diocese who humbly accept the full teaching of the Catholic Church and as a public recognition of their 33 years of forced marginalization at the hands of +Clark and his progressive cronies.

    As for our next bishop being around for 20 or 30 years, if he is a loyal son of the Church, why not? It’s going to take him some time to clear up the doctrinal and liturgical confusion he will be inheriting.

  44. Scott W. says:

    I’m not sure how removing the wrecking ball is an insult to building and occupants it was trying to smash, but oh well; I take your point about being wary of appointing bishops that are too young.

  45. Eliza10 says:

    Hopefull wrote: ” We should also note that apparently the input of the Presbyteral Council was not considered either, and Pope Benedict wasted no time on that kind of proposal or consideration.”

    What is the “input of the Presbyeral Council”???

    I am also very confused by what y2kscotty said about the Pope’s immediate acceptance being some kind of insult to all the people of Rochester! A rather wacky statement. I also wonder “how removing the wrecking ball is an insult to building and occupants it was trying to smash”?

    As to Bishop Cunningham who I don’t know about, its a comfort that he is at least not as bad as Clark since he does not wreckovate sacred spaces and seems to not discourage devout Catholic practices. Yet the other things make me wonder, too, particularly embracing St. Bernards. I will never forget our newspaper’s article on St. Bernards, which quoted the nun there who is in charge of the formation of priests, who had a distain for the crucifix becasue she “did not want a dead person hanging on her wall”. Is that wretched woman still in charge there? And Cunningham wants St. Bernards in Syracuse? Very confusing.

    Yet I feel that the administrator will not be pursing an agenda like Clark did, he will like likely administrate conservatively. Which is better than Clark here continuing with what he has done the last decades! So its a good thing!

  46. Eliza10 says:

    “..The venom spread on this page give the ideal that”

    Its easy to accuse “Venom!” when you can’t give a concrete example of any “venom”.
    You can’t because there isn’t.

    “.. all who live in this diocese are extreme, right wing conservative Roman Catholics who have been held in chains by an extreme left wing Roman Catholic Bishop. That is not the case.”

    This is ridiculous conclusion that no logically thinking person would make.

    “The majority who post on this page are so convinced that they have the correct solution”

    What is the “solution” being proposed by this “majority”?

  47. y2kscotty says:

    OK… I concede. But I still think a “young” bishop who can be here for 20 or 30 years is not a good idea.
    Interesting that Brian Cool’s name is up there close to Perry. Nice enough fellow, but I wouldn’t have thought of him as episcopabile ( anew word?). If I were picking a bishop from our diocesan clergy, I’d pick Fr. Alexander Bradshaw – he’s faithful, smart, outstanding preacher. Disadvantage is that he’d have to submit a letter in 5 years, but Pope Timothy I (LOL), at that time, might decide to leave him in the job for a few more years.
    And, to see Fr. Bill Leone’s name on the poll list – I can say that he is certainly a warm “people person”.
    And i see Sr. Mary Ann Binsack got some votes! Ha! LOL!

    Despite my concession, I do want to say that we have MANY faithful (even if they tend a bit to the left, but not far left) priests who may feel that their ministry under Bishop Clark may be somehow tainted, even if they have faithfully preached the Word of God. I am impressed by most of the priests I have met, and especially the retirees who are staying on help out, instead` of moving to FL. Let’s support our priests – all of them. This transition won’t be easy for them.

  48. raymondfrice says:

    Y2KScotty:
    (1). Bishop Bradshaw would be the first bishop of the diocese to have his grandchildren attend his consecration.

    (2). I was just curious and ask this because I think you can handle the question: Do you think Jesus was a consistent lefty, moderate, right, or far right conservative in his day when we judge Him in hindsight??

  49. Scott W. says:

    I was just curious and ask this because I think you can handle the question: Do you think Jesus was a consistent lefty, moderate, right, or far right conservative in his day when we judge Him in hindsight??

    Our Lord’s Incarnation was a testament to the Father’s eternal and unchanging Truths as opposed to the common worldview that Man is the center and sovereign of all things and that Truth changes according to whatever popular breeze comes down the pipe. I’ll leave it to readers to decide where that fits on a political spectrum if you happen to think it fits there anywhere at all.

  50. Hopefull says:

    I agree with Mike. This rapid, rare event of almost immediately accepting a Bishop’s resignation is a vindication of those who complained (at the very least) and not a slam against the people of the Diocese of Rochester. We are being told, in the “church way” in which messages are sent, that we were heard.

    To answer Eliza’s question regarding the Presbyteral (Priests’ Council) we have to first consider what happens if a Bishop’s resignation is promptly accepted without naming the next bishop or an Apostolic Administrator. A College of Consultors then runs the Diocese until an administrator is elected. Remember — this is AFTER acceptance of the bishop’s resignation. The College of Consultors is made up of 6-12 priests from the Diocesan Presbyteral Council. BTW, that Council is already appointed by the Bishop, stacked with those he particularly favors. It acts as a senior consultative body to a bishop when he is in office but when the position of bishop becomes vacant (upon acceptance of his resignation), the group of 6-12 priests (College of Consultors) “elects” an administrator and then forwards the name of the elected to Rome for confirmation. The one elected does not have to be one of their number, but usually is either the retired bishop or his vicar general (i.e. Bishop Clark or Fr. Hart in this case.)

    However, the Vatican must confirm the “election” before that person becomes Administrator. In the interim, the College of Consultors runs the diocese collectively. Thus in Rochester that means 6-12 of the people that Bishop Clark had already put on the Presbyteral Council. My point is that we should recognize that it would be strange if the Presbyteral Council hadn’t already been gearing up to elect an Administrator to recommend for Pope Benedict’s approval just in case Bishop Clark’s resignation were promptly accepted.) Our joy is not only the promptness of accepting Bishop Clark’s resignation, but by immediately naming the Apostolic Administrator, the Presbyteral Council and its politics (including causing further division among priests in our diocese) was avoided. Praise God!

    Fr. Hart’s activity on the ground is now all subject to Bishop Cunningham. As the #2 cleric on Diocesan staff and head of the pastoral center it makes some sense although is of concern of course. But to have not picked him would have perhaps been a further reprimand, that Bishop Cunningham is not prepared to deliver — yet. Whatever….

    BTW, I do not see anything wrong in sharing our observations, questions, answers and concerns on this blog, although still remembering the dignity of the office. Can we doubt that Cleansing Fire is being monitored closely by Bishop Cunningham’s own staff? And likely in Rome too. Especially now. We should use this opportunity to keep front and center our concerns for the diocese, for the future of our parishes, for the unsalved pain of church closures, for the suppression of the Latin Mass (extraordinary form), for forced removal of Tabernacles out of sight, for lack of financial reporting, for funding or support of LGBT/Fortunate Families debacle, for obscuring of orthodox teaching, for watered down catechetical teaching, to reopen closed schools and churches and…..more and more. We should understand that Bishop Cunningham probably will not do all of this, but he will have input regarding the “need” which he finds “on the ground.” It would be better to have our needs well-understood to have a chance to get the best fit to a new bishop. It is Also a better approach than simply revisiting the personality of the occasion. IMO.

  51. 14860 says:

    This comment makes no sense since the original reference was removed. Proves my point.
    Eliza10 says:
    September 22, 2012 at 12:10 PM

    “..The venom spread on this page give the ideal that”

    Its easy to accuse “Venom!” when you can’t give a concrete example of any “venom”.
    You can’t because there isn’t.

    “.. all who live in this diocese are extreme, right wing conservative Roman Catholics who have been held in chains by an extreme left wing Roman Catholic Bishop. That is not the case.”

    This is ridiculous conclusion that no logically thinking person would make.

    “The majority who post on this page are so convinced that they have the correct solution”

    What is the “solution” being proposed by this “majority”?

  52. Scott W. says:

    Proves my point.

    How so? What little we have sounds like rash judgement that should have been removed.

  53. Ben Anderson says:

    What is the “solution” being proposed by this “majority”?

    orthodoxy. education. catholic identity.

    orthodoxy. Be true to the teachings of the Church – which is nothing less than the word of God. To fight against the teachings of the Church is to fight God. We need to tackle the challenges of the modern world head on. The Christian life is pure joy and offers so much more than the world can offer.

    education. The amazing intellectual heritage of our faith is too often ignored. People think they have to be embarrassed about the history of the Church (including intellectual). This mentality is simply a lack of education. Let’s start with V2. What do the documents actually say? The myth that V2 is somehow this progressive council that changed the course of the Church is easily dispelled.

    catholic identity. Bring back Catholic devotions and worship. The majority of the liturgies I’ve been to around here are protestantized. The first time I witnessed mass in a more traditional style I was shocked. It wasn’t good or bad at first – just shocking. It made me almost uncomfortable because I felt the presence of God and I felt like I was being asked, “do you really believe in this?”. Sacred music, eucharistic adoration. It’s no secret what’s “working” in other dioceses. Ask the young people who are on fire for their faith (including seminarians) – what motivates them?

    as far as being called extreme right wing… please provide a reference for a time where someone on this blog has proposed mandatory acceptance of anything beyond what our Church teaches. The whole idea of placing people on a spectrum is just silly. Who cares how many people are to the “left” or “right” of you? What’s important is – do we adhere to the teachings of the Church?

  54. Ben Anderson says:

    “.. all who live in this diocese are extreme, right wing conservative Roman Catholics who have been held in chains by an extreme left wing Roman Catholic Bishop. That is not the case.”

    I also don’t remember anyone here claiming to speak for the majority of Catholics in the diocese.

  55. Eliza10 says:

    Hopefull, Thanks you for that very, very informative answer to my question. I appreciate it and I also stand by your statements in your conclusion.

    In this time of hope, this relief that the Era of Dissidence is surely concluding in our diocese, I am feeling gratitude toward those priests of our Diocese who faithfully lived alone in the frigid cold outside of Clark’s warm, pleasant, comfortable, affirming pastoral “brotherhood” these years. I felt they suffered, even though they did not tell us they suffered. They were the bright lights in this darkness, and it must have seemed a long, thankless darkness for them.

    One of those bright lights for me was Monsignor Murphy, now passed. I used to go see him at — [I am forgetting the name: that gorgeous new nursing home done up in “Clark style” for priests and nuns on French Rd] — for confession and advice. But the ones who really must have suffered were parish priests persevering in faithfulness to Catholic teaching [or, even though they truly were parish priests, they were not allowed to be called that but were obliged to take Clark’s obvious insult and demotion: “Parish Administrator”]. And I am so grateful to them, because they kept me from being discouraged. Every time I saw one of these priests I was filled with gratitude.

    I don’t speak of these priests here because I am afraid they already suffer enough, and being promoted here might bring them even more diocesan disfavor. Maybe its safe now to talk about our local heroes of our faith.

    In their faithfulness and surely suffering, they were granted much wisdom. And I had a lot of need for wisdom in these past years since I have been Catholic, and I am so grateful to these priests I could turn to because they were so full of God’s wisdom. I can’t imagine where I would be without them there, at all the turning points I faced. God surely did not abandon us in this Diocese in the Clark years; He poured out graces to us, especially through priests like these.

    They must feel some relief now, and I am glad for them! I would like to celebrate them!

  56. annonymouse says:

    Richard Thomas (9/21 at 6:43)-

    I find it necessary to correct a few inaccuracies in your post:

    1. It was Archbishop Jadot, not Jadet.
    2. Congressman Father Drinan left the Congress in 1981, fifteen years before Pres. Clinton vetoed the Partial-Birth Abortion act. So he did not vote “for” partial birth abortion while in Congress. That he supported Clinton’s veto of that act in 1996 is without dispute (to his let-us-hope-not-eternal shame).
    3. I’m not aware that Archbishop Jadot was a supporter of homosexuality, at least publicly. I’m not aware of any bishop who has publicly supported homosexuality. There are, obviously, many who have tried to befriend and minister to homosexuals and also many, to be sure, who have failed to teach the intrinsic disordered nature of homosexuality and the grave sinfulness of homosexual acts. But “support”? That’s a stretch.

  57. Ben Anderson says:

    Mouse, I would say that by supporting individuals (priests, professors, etc) and organizations who support homosexuality, that the bishop’s position on the matter was pretty clear… correction – bishop emeritus

  58. annonymouse says:

    It is interesting that of the Jadot bishops who survived to retirement age (a goodly number resigned at age 74 or slightly younger – Hurley/Anchorage, Gerety/Newark, Roach/MinnStPaul, Harrison/Syracuse), only +Weakland (Milwaukee) seems to have had a resignation accepted more quickly (52 days – 4/2/02 to 5/24) but there was no August holiday in the mix with +Weakland. +Sullivan of Richmond submitted his resignation on June 10, 2003 and his was accepted on Sept 16 (about 3 months).

    So there can be no doubt that Rome has sent a clear message here – that the old order is passing away and that they are impatient for change to happen here. That said, I will be very surprised if we have to wait for very long for a new bishop to be named.

    In terms of who it will be – I think the chance that the next bishop will come from within the Diocese (Bradshaw, Cool, whoever) is about 0.00001%. Forget about it. There are some fine DoR priests who may be called upon some day, but not here, not now. The tricky part now will be finding a bishop who will say “yes.”

  59. Dr. K says:

    “There are some fine DoR priests who may be called upon some day, but not here, not now.”

    There are a few fine bishop candidates among our current seminarians.

  60. Richard Thomas says:

    I hope that after the dust has settled that someone does a detailed expose concerning how the modernists were able to infiltrate almost all segments of the Catholic hierarcy in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s to wreak so much havoc. I would love to name names and just see where and how Vatican II was hijacked. We already know much about the dissent concerning Humanae Vitae but so much of the dissent was well organized and had to be festrering for years, posssibly decades.

  61. y2kscotty says:

    raymonfrice says, “all the laity have stuffed their ears with cotton so as to block out the uninspired preaching and nothing has come from the pulpits ”
    Not at all! I have heard great sermons/homilies from Peter Clifford, Alexander Bradhaw, John Philipps, to name three. I have heard some bad sermons/homilies…but we had that even back in the Kearney and Sheen eras. And I have heard a couple bad ones from a couple of priests who were ordained in the past 3 years.
    Yes, Bp. Clark should definitely have reined in Jim Callan long before he was ordered to. Clark’s couple of Masses for the gay/lesbian community did not offend me – but I do think that Callan is wrong to “bless” homosexual unions – and that’s on the ground that’s on the ground that such unions are not sacramental, in the sense of being one of the 7 Sacraments. Basically, Jim Callan was fooling around with the Church’s sacramental system, its core worship. And he deserved to be censured and suspended and excommunicated. And maybe there should be others who could be disciplined.
    He has generally been quite firm regarding priests who have abused children. Certainly his record on that problem is about as good as any Bishop’s record. Even conservative bishops have been criticized for their own covering up. So, it isn’t just Jadot-style bishops.

  62. annonymouse says:

    Richard Thomas –

    You imply that Humanae Vitae was a Vatican II document (or at least I infer that) – it was not.

    It is a ridiculous thing to say that “Vatican II was hijacked.” The votes on the major documents indicate that there was unusual, extraordinary, likely unprecedented consensus:

    Sacrosanctum concilium 2147-4
    Gaudium et spes 2307-75
    Lumen gentium 2151-5
    Dei verbum 2344-6
    Dignitatis humanae 2308-70

    Where do we EVER see a group of 2000+ human beings come to such unanimity? Vatican II was most definitely NOT hijacked by “dissenters!”

    It must be further noted that none of the Vatican II documents were (or could be) promulgated without the approval/agreement of the Holy Father. So I will not sit idly by while you intimate that the Holy Fathers of Vatican II were dissenters!

    Comments such as yours shred any remaining credibility you had and, I’m afraid, would lead a casual observer of these pages to think that CF is nothing but a bunch of right-wing crazies.

  63. Ben Anderson says:

    mouse,
    I’m guessing you misinterpreted Richard’s comment. When he said V2 was hijacked, I don’t think he was suggesting the documents of V2 were flawed in any way. I think what he was suggesting is that people have been misinterpreting V2 for decades – the so-called “spirit of V2” that is anything, but what the documents actually say.

    CF is nothing but a bunch of right-wing crazies.

    nice, real nice.

  64. Rich Leonardi says:

    Comments such as yours shred any remaining credibility you had and, I’m afraid, would lead a casual observer of these pages to think that CF is nothing but a bunch of right-wing crazies.

    Psychologists call this projection.

    When people say “Vatican II was hijacked,” it’s generally understood to mean that the implementation was done contrary to the letter and spirit of the conciliar documents.

  65. annonymouse says:

    Ben, you’ve proof-texted one phrase from my sentence and are responding to it. That is unfair, don’t ya think? If every poster were coming from the same place as Richard Thomas, then I suppose I’d stand by that proof-texted phrase, but most here are quite reasonable, and as you’ve said, seek only adherence to orthodoxy.

    Rich, I agree that that’s what people generally mean, and it is, without question, true to some extent. However, I don’t think that’s what Richard Thomas meant. He’s talking about dissidents “infiltrat[ing] almost all segments of the hierarcy (sic)” during the 50s, 60s and 70s. Perhaps it’s projection, but that sure seems to me like RT thinks the Council itself, and not (only) its implementation, was hijacked.

  66. Rich Leonardi says:

    ‘mouse,

    I think charity would bar the last sentence of your penultimate comment.

    And yes, we all fail to “clear that bar” on occasion.

  67. Richard Thomas says:

    Anonymouse,

    Do you want to expand on your comment? Where do you think I am coming from? Where do you have problems with my posts?

    I can only talk on what I have read and heard, from competant sources. And my connections with Catholic theeologians and physicians.

    Much of my information I get from Real Catholic TV, now Church Militant.com.

    Learning what happened during the Humanae Vitae period was very revealing. I learned how Pope Paul Vi wanted dissenting opinion, thinking he might learn new information. But the leader of the opposition, it was a Dominican but his name excapes me, was intent on pushing through the dissenting opinion, the opinion now quoted by many in the DOR,the 70% who were in favor of artificial birth control, but the pope rejected it because it was ideology and not science or legitimate theology. But the dissenters were organized and the rest is history.

    I have no problems with the English mass. But who mandated the change? Again, I am only getting my questions from Church militant.

  68. Richard Thomas says:

    Anonymouse,

    I believe Vatical II was very legitimate. I believe in Lumen Gentium.

    I do have issues that the implementation of many concepts of the council was hijacked. And in many situations, it was done with the culprits remaining annonymous.

  69. annonymouse says:

    RT –

    You “believe in” Lumen Gentium. Great. However, as Vatican II was an ecumenical council, we do not have a choice as Catholics as to whether to believe some or all of the council’s teachings. We are obliged to embrace all of them.

    The United States bishops decided that the vernacular would be used as the ordinary form of our liturgy, for they are the competent local authority designated by Sacrosanctum Concilium to make that decision.

    I respect “Church militant.com” but you really should expand your sources. As an example of how they are out of touch with the Council, the fathers of Vatican II expressly replaced the term “Church militant” with “pilgrim Church” in Lumen Gentium (which you believe) and you won’t find the words Church Militant in the catechism.

    I agree with you that the dissent on Humanae Vitae is both frustrating and saddening. Paul VI opened the door in seeking advice and counsel, and pride and arrogance caused many to openly defy, rather than comply. And I cannot ever remember hearing a homily in which the sin of artificial contraception is mentioned, much less decried.

  70. Dr. K says:

    “The United States bishops decided that the vernacular would be used as the ordinary form of our liturgy, for they are the competent local authority designated by Sacrosanctum Concilium to make that decision.”

    Of course Latin is always permitted in both the O.F. and E.F.

  71. Richard Thomas says:

    Annonymouse,

    That is what is so frustrating. You are correct. We have never heard a homily on birth control. And we have not heard a homily on pre-marital sex, pornography, homosexuality and abortion in 40 years.

    I am now hearing advertisements for birth control routinely on the radio and television. Catholics believe in Gay Marriage , abort and use birth control in the same percentage as the general population.

    We have lost the culture. The Catholic Church was supposed to be the glue that held society together but due to the widespread dissent, has in many cases, married the culture.

    When you look at all the social ills, and spiritual and medical ills associated with promoting these things, I cannot see our society prevailing. The family is being destroyed. If God wants us to be with him, and we steadily refuse his grace, I can only think that our society as we know it will unfortunately come to an end, or perhaps we will be mercifully chastized.

  72. Hopefull says:

    Yes, Pilgrim is used in the 2nd edition of the revised Cathechism; sounds “nicer” I guess. But the Catechism claims to be “in accordance with the Official Latin Text.” Doesn’t the Latin version of the Catechism still use “Ecclesia Militans?” Sort of sounds like Church Militant to me. Why would “pilgrim” be a better translation of “militans” than is “militant?” Maybe “Pilgrim” warns us of ambushes on the way? Snakes in the underbrush? We’ve had bad translations before; maybe we still do.

    The Latin text should be controlling. “Pilgrims” doesn’t negate 2000 years of teaching. Generations of Baltimore Catechisms have used Church Militant. It doesn’t change that we, the Faithful on earth, are still engaged in a battle for our souls.

  73. annonymouse says:

    I’ve heard homilies in the past year that have mentioned abortion, pornography and homosexuality (implicitly, referring to marriage being one man and one woman). And I know a deacon who fairly regularly mentions abortion in his homilies. I’ve heard a few homilies this year that have mentioned the HHS Mandate.

    Granted, these are not frequent occurrences.

  74. annonymouse says:

    Hopefull – militans does not appear in the Latin Lumen Gentium. LG 48 refers to “Ecclesia peregrinans” which best translates to “pilgrim Church” – continuing the use of “militans” was a matter of some debate, if memory serves, but the final document dropped it.

    RT – well I agree with your comments, except that we have not lost the culture, and we must indeed battle (militant) for it. When it seems that we are losing, remember that God is in charge (and I looked ahead to the last chapter – God wins!).

  75. Hopefull says:

    Annonymouse, what about the Latin Catechism? Do you know if it uses militans or not? I don’t have a copy in Latin. Thanks.

  76. Dr. K says:

    Do you know if it uses militans or not?

    I checked the online Latin edition and couldn’t find militans.

  77. Ben Anderson says:

    mouse said:

    However, as Vatican II was an ecumenical council, we do not have a choice as Catholics as to whether to believe some or all of the council’s teachings. We are obliged to embrace all of them.

    sort of. We are not obliged to believe that every word, every sentence, every thought was articulated in the best possible way.

    As Archbiship Di Noia stated:

    the pastoral constitution “On the Church in the Modern World” [Gaudium et Spes] makes comments about the nature of culture which, generally speaking, everyone now believes was overly optimistic.

    mouse also said:

    The United States bishops decided that the vernacular would be used as the ordinary form of our liturgy, for they are the competent local authority designated by Sacrosanctum Concilium to make that decision.

    even that, though, is a completely different thing from what we’ve seen – which is total expulsion of Latin from the liturgy – which goes against Sacrosanctum Concilium

    36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

    Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

    101. 1. In accordance with the centuries-old tradition of the Latin rite, the Latin language is to be retained by clerics in the divine office. But in individual cases the ordinary has the power of granting the use of a vernacular translation to those clerics for whom the use of Latin constitutes a grave obstacle to their praying the office properly.

    (this document is full of gems)

    I attended mass for several years (before and after I became Catholic) in a variety of typical parishes and never once heard Latin. I had no idea what “et cum spiritu tuo” was. Even parishes that mostly use the English ought to mix in Latin enough so that people become familiar with it.

    I respect “Church militant.com” but you really should expand your sources. As an example of how they are out of touch with the Council, the fathers of Vatican II expressly replaced the term “Church militant” with “pilgrim Church” in Lumen Gentium (which you believe) and you won’t find the words Church Militant in the catechism.

    The fact that V2 and the CCC use “pilgrim Church” instead of “Church militant” means just that. It doesn’t mean that the term “Church militant” is null and void – it just means they used a different term. There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with continuing to use that term. And I’ll bet you’ll see it back in official Church documents within a few decades.

  78. Richard Thomas says:

    Ray or Annonmouse,

    I cannot remember who asked a question but I had posted a statement to watch out for the nuns in the diocese. One of you asked me my sources and I indicated personal experience. Now, I can add the most recent article on the “Nuns bus”. God help us!

  79. raymondfrice says:

    RT: Why don’t you take the intra-diocesan bus and tell us about the sites that are serving the poor and performing the corporal and spiritual works of mercy in Rochester??

  80. Richard Thomas says:

    Ray,

    Ive mentioned several times that it is good to help the poor. But people in our own church are promoting “Social Justice, and to many that also means, Income redistribution, abortion, homosexual marriage and artificial birth control. Now as a Catholic I have problems with this. I am offended and concerned these nuns were part of the driving force behind O’Bama care and their support helped pass the Health Care Bill.

    Sat what you want about helping the poor but I cannot support any legislation that pays for abortions, birth control and punishes any institution for opposing it. Health care rationing is right around the corner. And when our own nuns are supporting this, It just cements my opinion that they, unfortunately, are heretetical in spite of their “helping the poor”.

    And at the same time, these nuns are traveling the country telling to everyone the authority of the bishops concerning health care is no good.

    Isn’t this terribly destructive to a Church that has been torn apart by dissent for over 40 years?

  81. annonymouse says:

    Ben Anderson – make sure your sources are up to date. For instance, Paul VI (I believe) besically ditched latin in the Divine Office not too long after the Council. I don’t recall off hand the name of his document, but I’ll find it.

    Regarding “militant” I believe the Council Fathers expressly decided to replace that terminology. These documents, like it or not, have a very ecumenical bent to them.

    I know from personal experience that the spiritual journey is both one of pilgrimage AND one of taking up arms to fight the evil one, who “prowls the earth” in search of souls.

  82. annonymouse says:

    Richard Thomas – 9/26 at 7:35 – I agree with you 100%. Well said

  83. Ben Anderson says:

    mouse,
    I probably diverted things by including the Office, but I’m guessing you’d agree that total expulsion of Latin from the mass wasn’t called for? (I’d still be interested in seeing that document if you can find it)

    Regarding “militant” I believe the Council Fathers expressly decided to replace that terminology.

    I’m not disagreeing, but did they go so far as to say that that term is now null and void and shouldn’t be used.. and anyone who uses it is “out of touch”? Also, it’s completely legitimate to think that the council shouldn’t have switched that terminology.

    These documents, like it or not, have a very ecumenical bent to them.

    It’s quite possible I wouldn’t be Catholic right now if they did not. Being considered a brother in Christ by the Catholic Church was part of the process that brought me in to hear what she had to say, “it must not be so bad if they consider me and my family to be brothers and sisters in Christ”. (Many in the tradition I come from do not return that favor.)

    I know from personal experience that the spiritual journey is both one of pilgrimage AND one of taking up arms to fight the evil one, who “prowls the earth” in search of souls.

    indeed.

  84. y2kscotty says:

    raymond says:
    “Y2KScotty:
    (1). Bishop Bradshaw would be the first bishop of the diocese to have his grandchildren attend his consecration.

    (2). I was just curious and ask this because I think you can handle the question: Do you think Jesus was a consistent lefty, moderate, right, or far right conservative in his day when we judge Him in hindsight??”

    Regarding (1): that would be an astonishing thing, wouldn’t it? Actually, it would be a wonderful thing! Fr. B is a remarkable person and eminently “epicopabile”, despite his current age of 70 or 71.

    Regarding (2): In His day, Jesus was definitely “unorthodox” when compared to the literalists of His day. He interpreted the Scriptures and the understanding of His Father in ways that were at odds with the prevailing views at the time. But, at the same time, He was a devoted Son and, presumably, a good Jew, observant of the Law, but not a literalist. So – maybe “moderate” fits – but actually those categories which you give may not apply to Jesus at all. Perhaps He could be a lesson to anyone on CF.

  85. Dr. K says:

    ” Perhaps He could be a lesson to anyone on CF.”

    This is the only warning I’m going to give you Y2K to cut out the snide remarks. It stops here.

  86. Ben Anderson says:

    y2kscotty,
    Please provide an example of a time when Jesus taught a contrary opinion about a doctrine taught infallibly by authorities established by God. Thanks.

  87. annonymouse says:

    y2kscotty – in light of the fact that Bishop Clark was just summarily dismissed, Father Bradshaw (and all the other priests in the DoR) have a better chance of winning the lottery than of being named the next Bishop of Rochester.

  88. Richard Thomas says:

    Knowing the alletgance of many priests to the bishop, and their cooperating with implementing his aganda, I would bet that NO priest in Rochester would ever be considered for bishop.

  89. Richard Thomas says:

    Sorry: Allegiance

  90. raymondfrice says:

    Please provide an example of a time when Jesus taught a contrary opinion about a doctrine taught infallibly by authorities established by God. Thanks.

    The Old Testament allowed divorce but Jesus did not. I also I believe that infallibilty was given to Peter and the successors of Peter for the first time by Jesus.
    Jesus also improved on the Old Testament commandments with His great commandment.

  91. Ben Anderson says:

    Soooo, Raymond, it sounds like you’re saying such an example doesn’t exist? Proving y2kscotty’s analogy to be false.

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