Cleansing Fire

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The Name “Catholic”

January 9th, 2012, Promulgated by Diane Harris

Tonight’s edition of RealCatholicTV continues the theme of some prior posts that the Archdiocese of Detroit (well, the Abp to be more precise) is attempting to crack down on the use of the word “Catholic”  in RealCatholicTV.  There seems to be no evidence at this time that any organization other than RealCatholicTV is being targeted for its use (misuse or abuse) of the word “Catholic.”  Catch up with this emerging story at  http://www.realcatholictv.com/daily/?today=2012-01-09 where Michael Voris presents the official reaction from St. Michael Media. 

Lifesite News tonight has detailed the same story at the following site:   http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archdiocesan-canon-lawyers-differ-on-asking-realcatholictvcom-to-drop-cath?utm_source=LifeSiteNews.com+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=6a800b3cdc-LifeSiteNews_com_US_Headlines01_09_2012&utm_medium=email  

That a diocese or archdiocese would move against faithful use of the word Catholic but not unfaithful use of the word Catholic rather boggles the mind.  Those not serious about obedience to the Church find it fairly easy to just ignore complaints and use the word Catholic without consideration, even with insult (e.g. Spiritus Christi’s stubborn use of the word “Catholic” even in the yellow pages, misleading Catholics who seek a valid place to attend Mass.)  Those who use the word Catholic in support of the Church (although understandably not necessarily supporting every pastor, bishop or cardinal) are more vulnerable to attack by local leaders of the very church they seek to protect.  That is the situation apparently in which RealCatholicTV finds itself.

The issue revolves around the Catch 22 of Canon 216, which reads in its entirety: “Since they participate in the mission of the Church, all the Christian faithful have the RIGHT to promote or sustain apostolic action even by their own undertakings, according to their own state and condition.  Nevertheless, no undertaking is to CLAIM the name Catholic without the CONSENT of COMPETENT ecclesiastical authority.”  (capitalization added.)  There seems to be no doubt or contest that individual Catholics have the RIGHT to produce and disseminate RealCatholicTV, only (quite belatedly it seems) a dispute about using the word “Catholic.”  Presumably they could use “catholic” where the lower case word means “universal,” or “Cath****”” or maybe other possible variations?   

What is meant by “CLAIM” in the Canon?  Does it mean “use?”  Or does claim imply some sort of unilateral and preemptive seizing of a word for exclusivity in a particular application?  Does “CONSENT” mean agreement in advance, approval of title and context, review of each use?  Clearly, such requirements could become onerous and discourage apostolic activity which Canon 216 seems to want to encourage.  Is consent to be assumed, until some negative action is taken by church leadership?  Is it then a case of just waiting for an authoritative shoe to drop?

The other question currently on the table is jurisdiction.  Competence assumes the jurisdiction, and part of the current dispute involves whether or not Michael Voris, living in the Archdiocese of Detroit, but not being owner of the site, is responsible for complying or even able to comply with any order regarding the site, which generally has not been specifically aimed at the Archdiocese of Detroit.  As a matter of fact, the owners of the site seem to be in the more supportive South Bend Diocese.  Can an employee be ordered by his diocese to give up his job in an apostolate which he has a right to pursue (but not a  “Catholic” politician to give up his or her use of the word Catholic to describe their beliefs?  or a “Catholic” doctor not required to leave a hospital which does abortions?)

In spite of the modernity of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, it seriously lags today’s technology.  It is the same problem we see around the world.  How does China keep Google out?  How do governments prevent the social media from coalescing groups to overthrow the government?  National borders don’t mean much in this age of such open communications, state borders mean even less.  And diocesan borders, where interpretation is left to so many different bishops of varying opinions would seem to be easily circumvented by moving corporate shells to some other diocese.  Yet cyberspace knows no diocesan boundaries. 

While all of these points may deserve discussion or even dispute, none would seem to have as much impact as the thin skin of ecclesial leadership being criticized for not living up to and implementing the church’s teaching.  All of the furor about RealCatholicTV.com may simply be a sign that the water of persistent knocking, seeking and asking eventually wears down even the hardest stone.

This situation will be well worth watching, for its implications on lay initiative, on the role of technology (like blogs) in the new evangelization, and for reflecting the importance of well-formed consciences in all areas of life, including within the Church, as well as in the secular world.

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54 Responses to “The Name “Catholic””

  1. avatar Ben Anderson says:

    Yes, it is an interesting topic. Thanks for this post, Diane. I’ve read some of Ed Peters’ commentary on the issue, which I found helpful.

    reverse chronological order:
    Some thoughts on the ‘jurisdiction’ question in the AOD – Voris/RCTV matter

    A few more things to keep in mind about the AOD and Voris/RCTV

    The first thing to understand about the AOD vs. Voris/RCTV dispute

  2. avatar Richard Thomas says:

    During the time the Catholic Physician’s guild was suppressed, the bishop replaced their moderator with a more “diocesan friendly” priest. The guild then went outside the diocese and appointed their own moderator. The guild was then notified that they were no longer allowed to use the word “Catholic” in their name. So the guild was compelled to change their name to the “St. Lukes Physician Guild”. It’s simply whether or not you get along with your bishop. There are groups who are faithful who will be unable to use the word “Catholic” in their name, and groups totally dissident, who can use the word “Catholic”, simply because they have the approval of the local bishop.

  3. avatar Diane Harris says:

    Hi Ben,
    Good input on those 3 links. Thanks. Since I am not a canon lawyer, I can only observe or comment as an individual but I was struck by Dr. Peters’ quote from the Archdiocese of Detroit: “…..does not regard [Voris/RCTV] as being authorized to use the word ‘Catholic’ to identify or promote their public activities.”

    My observation is of the word “use” rather than “claim”, and questioning just what is the difference? When does one cross the line from “use” to “claim?” Is there intended to be a difference under Canon Law? Unfortunately, precedent does not have the strength in Canon Law that it does in Civil Law, so we can’t really look to prior interpretations. The AoD saying “use” in the same sentence as “authorized” would seem to imply the undoable; i.e. get “authorization” before every use! That brings me back to the concern that with such an interpretation, the word “Catholic” would only be used by those who are outside the Church, or within but in disregard or disrespect. Thus, especially in these times of technology leaps, clarification is needed more than ever, not just a one-off diocesan huff.

  4. avatar Lionel says:

    The Archdiocese of Detroit also opposed Real Catholic TV.com’s understanding of other religions and Christian communities. Vorris affirms the dogma outside the church there is no salvation.
    The case is similar to that of apologist Robert Sungenis of Catholic Apologetics International (CAI). His former bishop asked him to remove the name Catholic from CAI. Robert was also being opposed by the Jewish Left while his bishop was unable to say in public that Jews need to convert into the Church for salvation.
    Robert Sungenis’ bishop of Bishop Kevin Rhoades who is now the bishop of Fort Wayne-South Bend, USA where the owner of Real Catholic TV.com lives. He is Marc Brammar who has written to the bishop and received no reply.
    Wikipedia and other hit media have reported that Sungenis had been criticized by the his bishop, Kevin Rhoades and was asked to remove the name Catholic.
    Michael Vorris has indicated that the pressure on the Archdiocese of Detroit has come also from outside the diocese. He seemed to be indicating the same non Catholic opponents of Sungenis.
    Would the Archdiocese also not accept the conclusion of the following report on the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

    Tuesday, January 10, 2012
    ERRORS IN THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: OUTSIDE THE CHURCH NO SALVATION
    The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) under the sub heading outside the church there is no salvation mentions invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire as exceptions. They are not defacto exceptions.

    Vatican Council II also mentions invincible ignorance (LG 16) but nowhere implies that it is an exception to the dogma or the ordinary means of salvation.

    The Catechism instead implies that those who are saved in invincible ignorance are visible and known to us, so the baptism of water is needed by only those who know about Jesus and the Church.

    The text of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus states that everyone needs to enter the Church. The text of the dogma defined three times is not included in the Catechism.This is all misleading.

    To imply that the baptism of desire is a defacto exception to the dogma is heresy. It is indifferentism when one says non Catholics can be defacto saved in their religion and we know who these cases are. This teaching is not part of the Deposit of the Faith. It is irrational and a repititon of the Richard Cushing Error.

    Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in preparing the Catechism did not violate the Principle of Non Contradiction. Since defactro every one needs to enter the Church for salvation (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence) and dejure, in principle, in theory and known only to God a person can be saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire.

    Placing invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire under the subheading Outside the Church NO Salvation however implies that they are relevant to the dogma or defacto exceptions.

    For the Catechism to say that the baptism of water is needed for only those who know about Jesus and the Church could imply that those saved in invincible ignorance are defacto known to us in the present time. It implies that we know these particular cases and so we cannot say that everyone on earth with no exception needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of desire for salvation: to avoid the fires of Hell.

    Also to suggest that only those who ‘know’ need the baptism of water for salvation would imply that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated not for disobedience but for heresy. It would also imply that the excommunication was wrongly lifted by the Catholic Church without the priest having to recant or make changes in his writing. It also implies that the popes, saints and Fr. Leonard Feeney were wrong in saying everyone needs to be an explicit member of the Church for salvation. It would also be a contradiction of three Councils which defined the dogma in an extra ordinary mode. The ‘dogma’ is referred to in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 as the ‘infallible statement’.

    For a priest to knowingly say that there are defacto exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus is a first class heresy and a mortal sin. He is refuting the Nicene Creed in which we pray, “I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins” and “I believe in the Holy Spirit the Holy Catholic Church”. It was the Holy Spirit which guided the Magisterium of the Church to teach over the centuries that outside the church there is no salvation.

    A priest, who knowingly continues in this error, even after being informed, is in manifest public heresy and is not to offer Mass without receiving absolution in the Confessional and making public amends; removing the sacrilege. Similarly it would be a sacrilege for a lay person knowingly in this error to receive the Eucharist.
    -Lionel Andrades

    ERRORS IN THE CATECHISM ?
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/errors-in-catechism.html

    Practically everyone needs the baptism of water for salvation while in theory a person can be saved with the baptism of desire – Rector, Church Santa Maria Annunziata, Rome
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/practically-everyone-needs-baptism-of.html

    In the Catechism of the Catholic Church why did Cardial Joseph Ratzinger not mention that the baptism of desire is not a defacto exception to the dogma outside the church no salvation nor to Vatican Council II ?
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/in-catechism-of-catholic-church-why-did.html

    ETERNAL WORD TELEVISION NETWORK (EWTN) SAYS ‘SUBMISSION TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE SOVEREIGN PONTIFF IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION’
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/eternal-word-television-network-ewtn.html

    CHURCH TEXT IS CRITICAL OF THE ARCHBISHOP OF BOSTON : REFERS TO IMPLICIT AND NOT EXPLICIT (TO US) BAPTISM OF DESIRE
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/12/church-text-critical-of-archbishop-of.html

    VICARIATE OFFICES FOR YOUTH AND THE SICK ARE TEACHING ERRORS
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/12/vicariate-offices-for-youth-and-sick.html

    YOUTUBE VIDEO QUESTIONS TO ASK THE CATHOLIC CHAPLAIN OR PROFESSOR
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/12/youtube-video-questions-to-ask-catholic.html

    PROFESSION OF FAITH: I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/12/profession-of-faith-i-believe-in-holy.html

    DID THE LETTER OF THE HOLY OFFICE 1949 CONTRADICT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS? NO
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/12/did-letter-of-holy-office-1949.html

    ROME VICARIATE HIT BY THE RICHARD CUSHING ERROR : Centro Della pastorale sanitaria says the baptism of water is not defacto needed for the salvation of all on earth
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/12/rome-vicariate-hit-by-richard-cushing.html

    BOSTON ARCHDIOCESE WEBSITE SAYS NOSTRA AETATE DISMISSES CHURCH INTEREST IN BAPTIZING JEWS AND AFFIRMS GOD’S COVENANT WITH THEM : NOWHERE DOES VATICAN COUNCIL II MAKE THIS CLAIM
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/12/boston-archdiocese-website-says-nostra.html

    CATHOLIC ANSWERS SUCCUMBS TO THE RICHARD CUSHING ERROR
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/12/catholic-answers-succumbs-to-richard.html

    MSGR.JOSEPH FENTON AND FR. WILLIAM MOST DID NOT NOTICE THE RICHARD CUSHING ERROR
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/12/msgrjoseph-fenton-and-fr-william-most.html

    USCCB REPORT MAKES ALLOWANCE FOR THE RICHARD CUSHING ERROR
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/12/usccb-report-makes-allowance-for.html

    FR.LEONARD FEENEY AND HIS COMMUNITIES HAVE ACCEPTED THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE PER SE
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/12/frleonard-feeney-and-his-communities.html

    ARCHBISHOP OF BOSTON CARDINAL RICHARD CUSHINGS LEGACY: FOLLOWERS INCLUDE USCCB, EWTN, CATHOLIC ANSWERS, SSPX, SEDEVACANTISTS MHFM
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/12/archbishop-of-boston-cardinal-richard.html

    CARDINAL RATZINGER DID NOT VIOLATE THE PRINCIPLE OF NON CONTRADICTION AS CATHOLICS UNITED FOR THE FAITH IMPLY
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/search/label/Catholics%20United%20for%20the%20Faith

    FR.TULLIO ROTONDO AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/frtullio-rotondo-affirms-cantate-domino.html#links

    LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/search/label/Fr.Rafael%20Pascual%20L.C

    CATHOLIC LAY PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITA EUROPA DI ROMA AFFIRMS DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/search/label/Corrado%20Gnerre

    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/errors-in-catechism-of-catholic-church.html#links

  5. avatar Raymond F. Rice says:

    A simple solution which I use is, when asked if I am Catholic or referring to my church, I link ROMAN to the word Catholic so they get the message. As far as the legal matters go, that need clarification and restrictions as said earlier. However I hate it when the higher clergy, usually lacking in intestinal fortitude, chooses to pick on the choir!!!

  6. avatar Scott W. says:

    I think they should obey the bishop and change the name to Real We’re-not-allowed-to-use-the-“C”-word-because-we-suspect-the-AOD-is-infested-by-gutless-wonders-petty-tyrants-and-chancery-dwellers-meanwhile-other-so-called-Catholic-groups-practice-Reiki-and-bang-the-drum-for-Episcopalizing-the-Church TV

  7. avatar Scott W. says:

    P.S. Any chance someone could remove the cut-and-paste data dump several comments prior?

  8. avatar militia says:

    Is there an error in it?

  9. avatar Scott W. says:

    Is there an error in it?

    Is that the only criteria? Perhaps everyone with a blog should spam twenty links to it here. Oh wait, only if you blog warns about the joooooooos.

  10. avatar Lionel says:

    It is not a ‘cut and paste’ it is an original report.The links are given so that one may know related points.
    The article is at the heart of the issue which no one, yet, wants to mention.
    Could it be that Bishops Allen Vigneron and Kevin Rhoades are under pressure too ?
    Could they come under leftist hate laws, which are Catholic-specific, if they do not disown Michael Vorris ?
    I had been writing to many religious in the Diocese of Pennsylvania,Harrisburg where Bishop Rhoades was originally posted.This was during the controversy there. Bishop Rhoades could not say that Jews need to convert into the Church for salvation, is the teaching of the Church. Robert Sungenis called the bishop; his bishop, and also Catholics United for the Faith,Steubenville, ‘heretics’.They still did not affirm the faith and began a campaign against Robert to make him change his views.
    Now Michael Vorris has affirmed the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and has produced some good videos on the Jews and the Catholic Church being the continuation of the Jewish religion.
    Real Catholic TV.com’s financier however lives in the diocese of Bishop Rhoades.
    So the ‘cut and paste’ is at the heart of the issue.

  11. avatar Diane Harris says:

    I found the report by Lionel to be helpful. I haven’t read through all the posts yet, but the ones I did were interesting and I thought were worth consideration, IMO. If someone doesn’t want to look at them, just scroll through. Thanks, Lionel.

  12. avatar BigE says:

    @Lionel

    “It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.” (Pope Pius IX, from his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863)

  13. avatar Lionel says:

    BigE: True those who are in invincible ignorance and observe the natural law can be saved, we agree. However these cases are known only to God. So they do not contradict the dogma.

    In principle we accept that there can be non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance in fact, defacto, we do not know any such case on earth and the ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.(AG 7,LG 14).

    Quanto conficiamur moerore does not say that these cases are defacto known to us.

  14. avatar Lionel says:

    Thursday, January 12, 2012
    Questions for the Canon Lawyers : Can Archbishop Allen Vigneron and Bishop Kevin Rhoades be considered Catholic if they refuse to affirm in public the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?

    The Detroit Archdiocese Canon Lawyer who is employed in the Archdiocese seminary must also acknowledge that Canon Law demands that a bishop ( a juridical person) must be a ‘a Catholic’. A bishop to be ‘a Catholic’ must be able to affirm all Church teaching ,especially those which must be ‘firmly beleived’(Dominus Iesus on Other Religions).

    Neither is the bishop of Detroit or Fort Wayne-South Bend willing to affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which is at the heart of the Real CatholicTV.com issue i.e the subject of the Jews in particular and non Catholics in general and their need to enter the Church for salvation.Michael Vorris has produced some good videos on this issue.

    The bishops of Detroit and Forth Wayne-South Bend are not willing to affirm the dogma or say that Jews need to convert for salvation and now they are targeting Michael Vorris and his financier Marc Brammar for defending Catholic teaching.

    As Shepherds they needed to inform Vorris and Brammar what was the precise moral or faith issue violated.They have not done so.

    The Canon Lawyer of Detroit must know that the Archbishop there has no right to call himself Catholic, according to Canon Law, since he denies a magisterial teaching in public.

    A simple question for the bishop of Detroit, which I asked Bishop Kevin Rhoades and he did not answer during the Robert Sungenis controversy was: Does the Catholic Church teach that non Catholic religions are not paths to salvation? (Dominus Iesus 20, CDF, Notification on Fr.Jacques Dupuis S.J etc).

    How can these bishops not affirm the dogma outside the church there is no salvation and canonically still offer Holy Mass and remain as bishops? They can commit sacrilege just because they have the political support of the ADL and the pro abortion rabbis linked to Israel?

    Why would Vorris and Brammar want a recommendation from these bishops in dissent?

    Michal Vorris has affirmed th dogma now the next step is to tell the bishops that we do not know anyone on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance.So they are not defacto exceptions to the dogma outside the church there is no salvation which Pope Pius XII called an ‘infallible statement’(Letter of the Holy Office 1949).

    This was one of the public errors of Bishop Kevin Rhoades when he put it in writing on a website against apologist Robrt Sungenis, approved by the Catholics United for the Faith,Steubenville ,when Bishop Rhoades was the bishop of Harrisburg,Penn.

    Questions for the Canon Lawyers.

    1.Can Archbishop Allen Vigneron and Bishop Kevin Rhoades be conidered Catholic if they refuse to affirm in public the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?

    2.Can they deny the dogma and still offer Holy Mass according to Canon Law?

    3.If they assume that those cases saved in invincible ignorance (LG16) and with the baptism of desire (CCC) are explicitly known to us and so are an exception to the dogma then would this not be heresy and a denial of the dogma?

    (Note Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church mentions those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. We accept this is as a posibility (de jure). No magisterial texts claim that we defacto know these cases and so they are an exception to the dogma or the ordinary means of salvation).
    -Lionel Andrades

    It’s a Free Country.. : A Catholic who rejects a defined dogma like outside the church no salvation is automatically excomunicated. He has no right to use the word ‘Catholic’.
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/its-free-country.html

    BISHOP KEVIN RHOADES CHAIRMAN OF OUR SUNDAY VISITOR
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/search/label/Bishop%20Kevin%20Rhoades

  15. avatar BigE says:

    @Lionel

    NO ONE knows the certainty of their salvation. Even those within the visible Church.

    So I’m not sure why you think the distinction of “only known to God” is relevent.

  16. avatar Ben Anderson says:

    NO ONE knows the certainty of their salvation. Even those within the visible Church.

    BigE, that’s not true. If you are a practicing Catholic in a state of grace, then you can have a moral assurance that you will be saved.

  17. avatar BigE says:

    @Ben

    1) Since we do not “earn” salvation, we can never presume with 100% assurance we got it. All we can do is trust with great humility in the love and mercy of God.

    2) Even if we did have “moral assurance” at this point in time, that makes no provision for what could happen tomorrow. None of us can see into the future. Thus, my point still stands.

  18. avatar Ben Anderson says:

    #1 that logic is so bad it hardly warrants a response

    #2 not relevant to the point Lionel made

  19. avatar Lionel says:

    BigE
    NO ONE knows the certainty of their salvation. Even those within the visible Church.
    Yes,until we die we must avoid mortal sin. We have the moral certainity of salvation if we die without mortal sin on our soulthat we will go to Heaven.

    BigE
    So I’m not sure why you think the distinction of “only known to God” is relevent.
    We know non Catholics are oriented to Hell because the Church tells us ao, the dogma mentions.

    Usually it is said that a non Catholic could be saved because he is in invincible ignorance,implying that there are such known cases on earth, who are an exception to the dogma and the centuries old teaching of the Church.

    These cases are ‘known only to God’ and so they are not exceptions to the dogmatic teaching. We do not know a single non Catholic adult on earth who is not oriented to Hell unless he converts into the Catholic Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.

  20. avatar BigE says:

    @Ben,

    “Work out your salvation in fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12).

    “I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me” (1 Cor. 4:4).

    Could you show me any instance where the Church has “assured” someone they are saved?

    So your saying the Church’s teaching is wr

  21. avatar Lionel says:

    BigE
    “Work out your salvation in fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12).
    “I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me” (1 Cor. 4:4).

    Correct. So work out your salvation in fear and trembling.

    Could you show me any instance where the Church has “assured” someone they are saved?

    The Church assures us we are saved through the teachings of the Church, the Bible and Tradition.
    The Church tells us what is right and wrong. The Bible for instance tells us that fornicators etc cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
    The dogma and magisterial documents tell us how to interpret the Bible for salvation and we know what are the conditions for salvation. We believe the Church is the only moral authority and it is only to this authority that God has given the ‘keys’ and the knowledge to go to Heaven.
    The Church tells us that if we commit a mortal sin we need absolution in the Confessional. If we die immediately absolved, we are saved, on the way to Heaven.

  22. avatar Richard Thomas says:

    Think. Does anyone remember the story of Fr. Feeny and his group. They were excommunicated in the late 60’s because they believed that outside the Catholic Church, there was no salvation. After Fr.’s death the group came back into the Church.

  23. avatar Lionel says:

    TRADITIONALIST WEBSITE LISTS FEENEYISM AS A HERESY INSTEAD OF CUSHINGISM
    A traditionalist website has listed the heresies of the past and among the modern heresies has been placed-Feeneyism.

    The heresy is Cushingism and not Feeneyism.

    Cushingism says there is salvation outside the Church implying that those saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire are explicitly known to us and so contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The dogma says all need to convert into the church for salvation.

    Cushingism gets its name from the Archbishop of Boston Richard Cushing who in the 1940’s rejected the centuries-old interpretation of the dogma.

    Richard Cushing opposed Fr. Leonard Feeney who held the traditional teaching on the dogma outside the church there is no salvation. He was supported by the Jesuits and the Jewish Left media in Boston.

    The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 addressed to Cardinal Cushing mentioned ‘the dogma’ which was interpreted consistently for centuries. It was the same interpretation as that of Fr. Leonard Feeney.

    The Letter also mentions the possibility of a person being saved with the baptism of desire but nowhere says that it is an exception to the dogma or that these cases are explicitly known to us.

    Likewise Vatican Council II maintained the traditional teaching and the interpretation of Fr. Leonard Feeney. Ad Gentes 7 states all need to enter the Church for salvation with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. Lumen Gentium 16 mentions the possibility of non Catholics being saved in invincible ignorance. Again, contrary to Cushingism it does not state that these cases are explicitly known to us or are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

    Dominus Iesus says salvation is available for all however to receive it one needs to enter the Church, the Church is necessary. (N.20).

    Cushingism refutes this teaching and says that the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are exceptions.Cushingites claim Fr.Leonard Feeney rejected these ‘exceptions’ to the dogma and so held the ancient ‘rigorist’ interpretation.Cushingites assume that implicit baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma. This is irrational.

    Cushingism is a widespread modern heresy in the Catholic Church.
    -Lionel Andrades

    THE HOLY FATHER POPE BENEDICT XVI IS A CUSHINGITE
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/05/holy-father-pope-benedict-xvi-is.html

  24. avatar Diane Harris says:

    A beautiful article on Fr. Feeney, and well worth the read:

    http://catholicism.org/a-latter-day-athanasius-father-leonard-feeney.html

    Those who speak up for the Lord and His Church will especially understand Fr. Feeney’s poetic lines:

    “I burned my bridges when I had crossed.
    I never brooded on what I lost,
    Nor ruined with rapine my holocaust.”

  25. avatar annonymouse says:

    Lionel –

    Your last comment should disqualify you from posting as I believe that you have just blatantly accused even the Holy Father of being a heretic. As I’ve said with folks on the left (E, for instance), I’ll say it to those on the far right, if your belief stands in opposition to our God-given and Spirit-guided magisterium, perhaps the problem is with your own belief and not the magisterium. At least you should start with that assumption, giving the benefit of the doubt to our God-given leaders!

    But rather than to further argue these points, shall we not all agree that Jesus Christ is the only Judge, and He has set forth the basis on which He will judge in the 25th chapter of Matthew’s Gospel.

  26. avatar BigE says:

    @annonymouse

    Since we don’t often have the opportunity to agree….:)

    I have to say a big “AMEN” to your last line above.

    Peace!

  27. avatar Thinkling says:

    I think Msgr. Pope from the Washington archdiocese has something apropos to say about all this.

  28. avatar Ben Anderson says:

    http://www.catholic.com/documents/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth

    The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19–24]), but the Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. Writing to Christians, Paul said, “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22–23; Matt. 18:21–35, 1 Cor. 15:1–2, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

    my new favorite bible site: http://biblia.com/books/rsv

  29. avatar Lionel says:

    anonymouse
    Your last comment should disqualify you from posting as I believe that you have just blatantly accused even the Holy Father of being a heretic.

    Lionel:
    Only the Holy Father and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith can declare someone a formal heretic. I am just a layman.
    Cushingism is a heresy I stand by that.
    The motives and contexts for the Holy Father and his Curia’s statements I am not in a position to judge or comment on.

    Anon:

    As I’ve said with folks on the left (E, for instance), I’ll say it to those on the far right, if your belief stands in opposition to our God-given and Spirit-guided magisterium, perhaps the problem is with your own belief and not the magisterium. At least you should start with that assumption, giving the benefit of the doubt to our God-given leaders!

    Lionel:
    Correct I affirm the Magisterium of the Church and in charity give them the benefit of the doubt or the possibility of change.

    Anon:
    But rather than to further argue these points, shall we not all agree that Jesus Christ is the only Judge, and He has set forth the basis on which He will judge in the 25th chapter of Matthew’s Gospel.

    Lionel:
    Yes and as expressed by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and not other Christian communities.

  30. avatar Lionel says:

    anonymouse
    As I’ve said with folks on the left (E, for instance), I’ll say it to those on the far right,

    There is no left or right position on Catholic doctrine and dogma. This is the illusion of the left. One can have an ideological position in politics and now it is being extended to religion, the Catholic Faith.
    However Catholics know that we cannot believe that every one needs to enter the Church visibly for salvation (Feeneyism) and also believe that some known people with the baptism of desire etc do not need to enter the Church for salvation, thus contradicting the dogma outside the Church No Salvation(Cushingism).
    It is not only irrational and does not make sense, it is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

  31. avatar rspears says:

    Can priests who have buggered children refer to themselves as former Catholic Priests now identified as pedophiles or are they supposed to use another term instead of Catholic, I am pretty sure Fox News was discussing this last night

  32. avatar Lionel says:

    Will Bishops Allen Vigneron and Kevin Rhoades give permission for a website against Michael Vorris?

    Robert Sungenis called his (former) bishop Kevin Rhoades a heretic since he could not say in public that Judaism is not a path to salvation and that Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation (to avoid Hell). A website was created Robert Sungenis and the Jews. While Bishop Kevin Rhoades, the former bishop of Harrisburg, Penn. asked Robert Sungenis to remove the word ‘Catholic ‘from his website Catholics Apologetics International. This was widely reported by the Jewish Left media including the anti-Sungenis website.

    Michael Vorris produced a good video titled The Jews. Robert Sungenis carried it on his website and wrote, ‘At last someone has got it right!’

    The video said the Catholic Church is the continuation of the Jewish religion. Catholics have the Jewish Messiah.They have the Sacrifice in the Mass. So this is the Eternal Covenant of the new Chosen People of God.

    Archbishop Allen Vigneron, the Archbishop of Detroit where Real Catholic TV is situated asked Michael Vorris to remove the name Catholic from Real CatholicTV.com. The owner of Real Catholic TV.com Marc Brammer lives in the Indiana Fort Wayne- South Bend diocese where Bishop Kevin Rhoades is the bishop.

    Now will Bishop Kevin Rhoades approve a hit-website against Michael Vorris and Real Catholic TV.com?

    When Fr. Brian Harrison O.S pointed out that the website Robert Sungenis and the Jews was not Catholic in its attitude to the issue and that it also lacked charity , those who maintained the website turned on him. They began a political attack. They politicized a doctrinal issue with the support of Bishop Kevin Rhoades and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops who did not say that the website was ‘not Catholic’.

    Similarly in the past Archbishop Richard Cushing used his office to prevent Fr. Leonard Feeney from teaching the traditional interpretation of the dogma outside the church there is no salvation. Fr.Leonard Feeney was being opposed by the Jews in Boston. Instead of supporting Fr. Feeney the Archbishop placed restrictions on the priest’s ability to offer Mass and hear Confession. Catholics were discouraged from visiting the St. Benedict Center. The Jesuits expelled a few Catholic professors from Boston College who were loyal to the teachings of the Catholic Church. They were criticised in communication with Rome.

    The Richard Cushing-Leonard Feeney, Kevin Rhoades-Robert Sungenis case is the visible manifestation of how the faith is compromised when there is political pressure from outside the Church. The bishops are not answering basic questions about the faith for fear of retaliation. Now they are making a virtue out of a necessity and putting restrictions on those lay Catholics who are still speaking the truth.

    Basic questions about the Catholic Faith are still there before those who maintain the website Robert Sungenis and the Jews and they are still there before Bishop Kevin Rhoades.

    1. Does the Catholic Church teach that Judaism is not a path to salvation? (Dominus Iesus 20, CDF,Notification on Fr.Jacques Dupuis S.J, Letter of the Holy Office 1949 (reference to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible teaching’ ), Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441etc.

    2. Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell (for salvation)? (Vatican Council II, Ad Gentes 7,Lumen Gentium 14 etc)

    The new ‘thought monitors’ are not going to answer these questions and they will persecute and oppose any Catholic, who does not deny the Faith.

    Bishop Kevin Rhoades is unable to say that Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation (to avoid Hell). He still maintains vaguely that Jesus is necessary for salvation. So one can believe that invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are the ordinary means of salvation and so Jews do not have to convert into the Catholic Church.They are saved in general through Jesus and the Church is the lie. The ordinary means of salvation is not invincible ignorance etc but Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.(LG 14, AG 7).

    Bishop Rhoades could not even answer something as basic as ‘Are non Catholic religions paths to salvation? ’ (Dominus Iesus 20, CDF, Notification on Fr. Jacques Dupuis S.J).

    Then there is the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, thrice defined. He still cannot affirm it in public and secondly considers those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire as possible exceptions to the dogma. This would mean that the baptism of desire is visible and so an exception to the dogma and that we know of explicit cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance. One could phone or meet them.

    This is the heresy of Cushingism. It was Cardinal Richard Cushing, Archbishop of Boston who said that there was salvation outside the church implying that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicitly known to us, for them to be exceptions to the dogma.

    Cushingism is heresy.

    It was Robert Sungenis who accused the bishop of being a heretic, not for the sin of Cushingism, but since he could basically not say that Judaism is not a path to salvation and that Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.

    In spite of the propaganda Robert Sungenis has not given up his Catholic Faith even though he must have had to pay a price for his faithfulness to Catholic teaching.

    Now the same whip of declaring someone not a Catholic is being applied to Real Catholic TV.com. Accusations are being made against Michael Vorris without naming the charge. The Sungenis case is a precedent which tells us why Michael Vorris is targeted.

    Michael Vorris understands and has produced a video A Free Country http://youtu.be/9-0aCDYDbnA . Robert Sungenis has placed it on the homepage of his website, The Bellarmine Report (Catholic Apologetics International).
    -Lionel Andrades

  33. avatar annonymouse says:

    Lionel –

    Dominus Iesus 20 says that the Church is necessary for salvation, but it does NOT say that everyone needs to “enter the Church” for salvation. And no, they are not the same thing.

    Lumen Gentium 8 of the Second Vatican Council makes rather clear that “the Church” and the “Catholic Church” are not interchangeable either. The Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth, and our separated Christian brethren are lacking in that truth in varying ways, but it does not say that our non-Catholic Christian brethren are condemned to hell unless they “enter the Church.” In fact, our separated brethren possess “many elements of sanctification and truth [which] can be found outside her [the Catholic Church] structure” (LG 8).

    What you are advancing is simply contrary to the teaching of our Magisterium.

    With respect to Michael Voris – he needs to change the name of his enterprise. Only the Bishops “own” the name Catholic, and canon law makes this point explicitly.

  34. avatar Lionel says:

    Anonymouse

    Dominus Iesus 20 says that the Church is necessary for salvation, but it does NOT say that everyone needs to “enter the Church” for salvation. And no, they are not the same thing.

    VI. THE CHURCH AND THE OTHER RELIGIONS
    IN RELATION TO SALVATION
    20. From what has been stated above, some points follow that are necessary for theological reflection as it explores the relationship of the Church and the other religions to salvation.
    Above all else, it must be firmly believed that “the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door”. This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.-Dominus Iesus 20

    Lionel: It is possible for non Catholics to be saved and it is necessary for all mankind to enter the Church with ‘faith and baptism’. They need to enter the Catholic Church in which men enter ‘as through a door’.

    The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being. For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.-Dominus Iesus 20

    Lionel: There can be those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church who can be saved through the Church the “universal sacrament of salvation” De jure, in principle it is possible.These cases are known only to God. Defacto and the ordinary means of salvation is ‘faith and baptism’ and the neeed to enter the church through baptism ‘as through a door’.

    The’gifts are impelling towards unity’ in the Catholic Church.

    _____________________________________________________________________________

    2
    Anonymouse
    Lumen Gentium 8 of the Second Vatican Council makes rather clear that “the Church” and the “Catholic Church” are not interchangeable either. The Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth, and our separated Christian brethren are lacking in that truth in varying ways, but it does not say that our non-Catholic Christian brethren are condemned to hell unless they “enter the Church.” In fact, our separated brethren possess “many elements of sanctification and truth [which] can be found outside her [the Catholic Church] structure” (LG 8).

    Lionel: It says there is one Church, one Creed and one body.It is one with the hierarchical organs of the Church. The Church of Christ is (Latin est) the Catholic Church.

    Are non Christian brethren are in different communities with different teachings and are not part of this one Church mentioned in Lumen Gentium 8.

    We accept that there could me be ‘many elements of sanctification and truth outside the Catholic Church’ and we also accept that it is possible in certain cases for a Christian-non Catholic to be saved and it would be known only to God. However Vatican Council II like other magisterial texts tells us that the ordinary means of salvation is ‘faith and baptism’ through which men enter the Catholic Church ‘as through a door’.(AG 7,LG 14).So all Christians and non Christians need to enter the Church as through a door with Catholic Faith and the bapism of water,for salvation (to avoid Hell).

    8. Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element. For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.
    This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”. This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

    This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.-Lumen Gentium 8

  35. avatar Eliza10 says:

    I just want to make a comment on the original post (the salvation topic is a huge separate topic).

    First I want to say I feel a bit out of the loop having been absent from CF at least 3 months… due primarily to God mostly unexpectedly gracing me with inner healing I never knew I needed so much. After that I needed some re-group time. Isn’t God good? He is full of surprises; things hardly ever go as we plan…

    And now I have not read here in awhile, and have to start somewhere, so I am starting with this strange story about the A of D and Michael Voris…

    First I want to say this statement of Diane’s spoke to me:

    “That a diocese or archdiocese would move against faithful use of the word Catholic but not unfaithful use of the word Catholic rather boggles the mind.”

    Yes. That. Incredible.

    Bishop Clark may have gotten away with such heavy-handed dissidence here at the DOR with the Catholic Physicians Guild and all the other outrages we tell of hear on CF, because there was just not enough publicity or awareness at the time – just we many, many DOR Catholics who Bishop Clark has consistently made it clear don’t matter. But times have changed. We have a voice. CF is a local voice, and we have national voice. We were only oppressed for a _little_ while. And if they are taken by surprise on that, its because of the foolishness of vain pride.

    And I think it can only be vain pride that makes the Archbishop of Detroit think he can get away with this. I think he will stumble on that pride. He looks ridiculous in this.

    Well to me they are like again hippies. And they will die off from their excesses, or retire off, and there are no young people who want to carry on their dissident ideas. Their hey day is all over.

    This is the time of the new Springtime. Our bishop is leaving soon and out with him will go his outdated and dissident ideas. And we will have new life.

    That the spotlight is on the Archdiocese of Detroit is IMO the work of the evil one who has given them their day and is done with them and is allowing their ridiculousness to show now. Yes, and lots more people will listen to Michael Voris to hear what the fuss is about. Whose website do you think they will flock to? Michael Voris’? Or the Archbishop’s?

    Yes. Not a smooth move. But pride goeth before the fall.

    Diane also wrote this:

    ““Since they participate in the mission of the Church, all the Christian faithful have the RIGHT to promote or sustain apostolic action even by their own undertakings, according to their own state and condition. Nevertheless, no undertaking is to CLAIM the name Catholic without the CONSENT of COMPETENT ecclesiastical authority.” (capitalization added.) ”

    Yes, highlight “COMPETENT”. Since the Archbishop lacks competence, the whole thing is a moot point.

    And the case belongs in South Bend, anyway…

  36. avatar Eliza10 says:

    Oh-kay! That is not what I wrote. But apparently when you use those tags all those things happen.

    The question is, can you please post directions for using those “tags” somewhere? I do not know how to properly post. Knowing how to quote would be very time-saving, i.e., and those other things might be useful but I have no idea what they are.

    Thanks.

  37. avatar Eliza10 says:

    Wow, Lionel, you probably have good things to say but its so much. Only the best minds can follow you. I guess that excludes me.

    This says it well that Big E shared:

    “It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.” (Pope Pius IX, from his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863)

    And also Ben shared some scripture. (The Word does get to the truth in few words!):

    The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19–24]), but the Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. Writing to Christians, Paul said, “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22–23; Matt. 18:21–35, 1 Cor. 15:1–2, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

    I am not saying you are not sharing truth, Lionel. Its just lost on most of us because it is not succinct enough…

    And on this delicate topic of salvation outside the church, so many words are not very Evangelistic because most people are going to think you are lecturing them or condemning them when faced with so many words. And its hard to put the love in there with so many words. And that’s how Jesus evangelized. With love.

  38. avatar Lionel says:

    Dear Eliza,
    Thank you for your post.
    I agree with you. I focus on doctrine and dogma which is a hard teaching, about many people going to Hell.
    When I meet people here they say that I am different from the person they think I am.When I write I come down hard and forceful…
    When I write I don’t mean the condemn. It’s my way of saying,”Watch out!Now is the time to do something. The mercy of God is available only NOW. After we die it’s too late.”
    Usually I am writing in a hurry.
    However I appreciate and understand what you are saying.
    In Christ

    Lionel
    p.s I also have difficulty with the tags even though I studied the HTML language on the internet.
    You can access Google and ask questions like ‘What is html?’

  39. avatar Lionel says:

    Rspears

    The media in the USA is not going to discuss this issue.If they did it would be a critcism of Michael Voris.

    Jan.17, 2012

    JEWISH CATHOLIC DAY OF REFLECTION TODAY :ROBERT SUNGENIS AND MICHAEL VORIS

    Pro abortion-ADL Rabbi speaks on theme ‘Do not Kill’

    The Day of Reflection (Giornata di Riflessione Ebraico –Cristiana) between leftists Jews and Catholics was to be presided over today by Mons. Benedetto Tuzia, President of the Diocesan Commission for Ecumenism and Dialogue, Vicariate Rome. According to a report in a local Church the participants include Rabbi Ricardo di Segni, Chief Rabbi of the Jewish community in Rome and Prof. Muuro Cozzoli, Professor of Moral theology at the John Lateran University, Rome.

    The annual meeting is being held at the John Lateran University without the participation of conservative Jews who oppose abortion and the pro abortion ADL.

    Rabbi Segni has the support of Israel so only those rabbis can meet the pope or participate in these meetings it is learnt who are not opposed to Zionism, and leftist values.Rabbi Segni along with his associates also decide what Catholic priests are to say or avoid speaking in homilies at Holy Mass in Rome.

    He personally went to the Urbaniana Pontifical University, Rome and the Vatican offices cautioning them against Catholic Mission and evangelisation. There was the threat of the Jewish Left anti Semitic laws and racist and proselytism charges against Catholics by the relatively small but influential Jewish community in Italy.

    Now at the Urbaniana University Prof. Sandra Mazzolini teaches, according to their syllabus, that Lumen Gentium 16 (Vatican Council II) is a development of doctrine, of a defined dogma, and so the Church’s teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus has changed. This is approved by the Rector of Urbaniana University and the Congregation for Catholic Education, Vatican.

    After Rabbi Segni protested along with the ADL against the Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews, the pope himself said that Jews do not have to convert in the present times. They would convert at some future end-times unknown to the pope.

    The Chief Rabbinate of Israel also protested against the Good Friday Prayer and ended dialogue, the newspapers reported, there was the threat of violence, war.Now dialogue has been resumed.

    Dialogue has resumed since the Church has changed its teachings under the threat of war and charges of anti-Semitism.Since the Catholic Church decided to change its teachings the Jewish left community was well represented at the last Assisi Interfaith meeting.

    The Vicariate like the pope has been accommodating and the Vicariate’s Pastoral Office for the Care of the Sick states on their website (Vicariato, Rome) that every one does not need to be baptized with water for salvation. It assumes there could be some people known in particular to the us, who are exceptions.

    The Vicariate also welcomes young vocations to the religious life. Candidates would have to agree that there is a visible baptism of desire which is an exception to the dogma outside the church no salvation.

    According to Fr. Brian Crawford, Rector, Oblates of St.Joseph, Rome we do not know any case of a person saved with the baptism of desire. So the baptism of desire does not contradict the dogma he agrees. However this is the understanding in the church now he says, and every one believes it.

    He means that though this is not a church teaching and is not part of the Deposit of the Faith however it is promoted by the Jewish Left media. So this is a political position. All have to accept this political position. Otherwise the bishops could say that we have no right to use the name Catholic, as it was done for apologists Robert Sungenis and Michael Voris.

    Presently ideological transfers and posting are being made at the Vatican with the aim of electing a pope who will be a liberal and will cause tremendous confusion in the Catholic Church.

    Rabbi Segni had also asked Cardinal Bagnasco the President of the Conference of Italian Bishops (CEI) to put down ‘the ugly head of anti Semitism every time it rears up’. The traditional, official teachings of the Catholic Church are in this category. Cardinal Bagnasco assured him that the Prayers for the Conversion of the Jews was not for their conversion in the present times and there was no mission to convert Jews into the Catholic Church. The Prayer was considered anti Semitic.

    Rabbi Segno also thanked Cardinal Bagnasco for supporting him on the Bishop Richard Williamson issue. Initially the Vatican spokesman and the pope supported Bishop Williamson’s entry into the Church saying that the bishop was free to hold a personal opinion on this subject. After the international political pressure the pope changed his position on this issue. Cardinal Bagnnasco had opposed the initial view of the pope and supported the Rabbi and so he was thanked.

    The scope of the anti Semitism laws in Italy and abroad have not been determined.So even if one refers to leftist rabbis and Communist lay members teaching at the Pontifical Gregorian University Rome today it could be considered anti-Semitic.

    A political policy of arresting Catholics for their religious beliefs in Italy has not been made . Establishment Catholics, pro-life Catholics would be expected to hand over these cases to the authorities.

    Meanwhile the Talmud is being translated into Italian with the cooperation of the Italian Education Ministry and the Rabbi in Rome is on the committee overseeing it. They also have a Jewish seminary in Rome and there is no opposition to the Jewish Left mission which is opposed by other Jews who are not pro abortion.
    -Lionel Andrades

  40. avatar Lionel says:

    annonymouse

    WIKIPEDIA MISINTERPRETS DOMINUS IESUS
    The Wikipedia entry on Dominus Iesus (English) has been changed and the new entry is a liberal comment with no citations.

    It says that it excludes the Orthodox Christians from having to enter the Catholic Church for salvation. (1). Then it says that the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus indicates that those in invincible ignorance can be saved.

    The catholic dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus does not even mention the possibility of salvation for persons invincibly ignorance (through no fault of their own). The dogma instead mentions Orthodox Christians (schismatics) and Protestants (heretics) as being damned unless they enter the Catholic Church. http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation

    It then mentions that Feeneyism has been condemned implying that this is a contradiction of Dominus Iesus and the dogma.(3)
    Fr.Leonard Feeney affirmed the dogma which the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 called an infallible statement’ so how could it be said that he was condemned for heresy ?

    Also Vatican Council II and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 acknowledge that a person can be saved in invincible ignorance etc.These documents do not state that being saved in invincible ignorance is a defacto exception to the dogma.Wikpedia assumes it is.
    Vatican Council II also says that Catholic Faith and the baptism of water is needed for salvation(AG 7,LG 14). This is the ordinary means of salvation. Similarly the dogma referred to in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 is the ordinary means of salvation.This has been the traditional teaching of the Church.
    -Lionel Andrades

    1.
    It is subtitled “On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church”. It is most widely known for its recapitulation of the Catholic dogma that the Catholic Church is the sole true Church of Christ.
    On one hand, the document says that non-Catholic Christian ecclesial communities that have not preserved a valid episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery are not Churches in the proper sense[1] and that non-Christians are seriously deficient in terms of access to the means of salvation in comparison with those who in the Church have the full means of salvation.[2] This excludes the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, whom the Catholic Church recognizes as having validly ordained bishops.

    2.
    A Catholic dogma, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (literally “no salvation outside the Church”) has sometimes been interpreted as denying salvation to non-Catholic Christians as well as non-Christians, though constant[citation needed] Catholic teaching has stressed the possibility of salvation for persons invincibly ignorant (through no fault of their own) of the Catholic Church’s necessity and thus not culpable for lacking communion with the Church. –Wikipedia on Dominus Iesus.

    3.
    In the 20th century this inclusive approach was expressed in the condemnation of Feeneyism and in the declaration of the Second Vatican Council, which said that “the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator,” although this is ambiguous and numerous interpretations have arisen. Vatican II further affirmed that salvation could be available to people who had not even heard of Christ (cf. Acts 17:23)— but that all who gain salvation do so only by membership in the Catholic Church, whether that membership is ordinary (explicit) or by extraordinary means (implicit).

  41. avatar Lionel says:

    BISHOP KEVIN RHOADES DENIES THE CATHOLIC FAITH
    I have been sent a link saying that Bishop Kevin Rhoades affirms the orthodox teachings of the Catholic Church.
    http://sungenisandthejews.blogspot.com/2008/02/bishop-rhoades-sets-record-straight_21.html

    In the four points mentioned in this link Bishop Rhoades says he believes that Christ established a new eternal covenant through his own death and resurrection. There are no two covenants one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles. Since Jesus is the only Saviour and saved all though his Body the Church. Salvation is possible for all through the grace of Jesus.The bishop does not say that Judaism is not a path to salvation and that Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation. He could be implying that all are saved through Jesus. All Jews are saved in general in their religion through Jesus and the Catholic Church and so there is no need to convert.

    In the second point he repeats the same message and says that he does not believe anyone can reach heaven without the mediation of Jesus Christ. Again he could imply that all Jews are saved in their religion through the mediation of Jesus Christ.

    In the third point he says that he does not believe that the Jewish People can be saved by their own covenant apart from Jesus Christ. Again he denies the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Dominus Iesus 20 etc. He refuses to say that Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation.

    In the fourth point he says he believes that the Church is called to bring the Gospel to all people. The Church’s missionary activity he says must be marked for the peoples of other religions and their religious freedom. This of course would preclude the need for them to convert or are our asking them to do so, out of respect for them.

    This is a classic denial of the Catholic Faith by Bishop Kevin Rhoades the present bishop of Fort Wayne Bend, Indiana.

    Bishop Kevin Rhoades is unable to say that Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation (to avoid Hell). He still maintains vaguely that Jesus is necessary for salvation. So one can believe that invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are the ordinary means of salvation and so Jews do not have to convert into the Catholic Church.They are saved in general through Jesus and the Church is the lie. The ordinary means of salvation is not invincible ignorance etc but Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.(LG 14, AG 7).

    Bishop Rhoades could not even answer something as basic as ‘Are non Catholic religions paths to salvation? ’ (Dominus Iesus 20, CDF, Notification on Fr. Jacques Dupuis S.J).

    Then there is the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, thrice defined. He still cannot affirm it in public and secondly considers those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire as possible exceptions to the dogma. This would mean that the baptism of desire is visible and so an exception to the dogma and that we know of explicit cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance. One could phone or meet them.

    This is the heresy of Cushingism. It was Cardinal Richard Cushing, Archbishop of Boston who said that there was salvation outside the church implying that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicitly known to us, for them to be exceptions to the dogma.

    There were also three points asked of Bishop Kevin Rhoades,Michael Forrest and others. They posted these three questions on the blog Robert Sungenis and the Jews but never answered them.

    1) Does the Catholic Church teach that non Catholic religions, Hindus, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam etc are not paths to salvation (to go to Heaven and avoid Hell)? YES

    2) Does the Catholic Church teach that Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water are needed for all people in general, barring the exceptions (invincible ignorance etc ) for salvation? YES

    3) When you meet a non Catholic can you tell him or her that he or she needs Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water to go to Heaven and avoid Hell? YES

    Scott Hahn and Daphne McLeod have answered yes, to these three questions.
    -Lionel Andrades

    Will Bishops Allen Vigneron and Kevin Rhoades give permission for a website against Michael Vorris?
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/will-bishops-allen-vigneron-and-kevin.html

    Questions for the Canon Lawyers :Can Archbishop Allen Vigneron and Bishop Kevin Rhoades be considered Catholic if they refuse to affirm in public the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/questions-for-canon-lawyers-can.html

  42. avatar Lionel says:

    Anonymous
    With respect to Michael Voris – he needs to change the name of his enterprise. Only the Bishops “own” the name Catholic, and canon law makes this point explicitly.

    Thursday, January 19, 2012
    CANON LAWYER IN INDIANA NEEDS TO BE ASKED : IS BISHOP KEVIN RHOADES JURIDICALLY A CATHOLIC?
    Evidence of the Fort Wayne Bend bishops denial of the Catholic Faith is on a website.

    Canon Lawyer Fr. Mark Gurtner (Judicial Vicar of the Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend in Indiana) said, it was reported on the internet, that the jurisdiction of the case against Real Catholic TV.com lies in the Indiana diocese whose bishop is Kevin Rhoades.

    Bishop Kevin Rhoades when he was the bishop of Harrisburg, Pennsylavia had also asked apologist Robert Sungenis to remove the name ‘Catholic’ from this website Catholic Apologetics International (CAI).The issue was the Jewish Left.

    Bishop Kevin Rhoades also approved a website Robert Sungenis and the Jews and provided statements to Michael Forrest which are still there on this anti-Sungenis website.

    I had asked three questions of Bishop Rhoades and also written to other priests hoping they would answer them and so diffuse the tension at that time.The three questions were posted on the website Robert Sungenis and the Jews but were not answered. There was no answer also from ishop Kevin Rhoades. Robert Sungenis called Bishop Rhoades and Catholics United for the Faith, Steubenville, heretics.

    According to Canon Law a bishop is a juridical person and has to be a Catholic. He is obliged to affirm the teachings of the Catholic Church.If Bishop Rohades does not affirm the faith when asked it is a denial.

    1. Bishop Kevin Rhoades is denying an ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Outside the Church No Salvation). http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation

    2. He is refusing to say that Judaism and other religions are not paths to salvation.

    3. He is refusing to say that Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation (to avoid Hell.

    4. The Bishop in Indiana is assuming that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are defacto known to us in the present times, since he considers them exceptions to the dogma and other magisterial teachings.

    5. Bishop Kevin Rhoades is assuming that there is some magisterial text which claims that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are defacto exceptions to the dogma outside the church there is no salvation.

    This is all contrary to Vatican Council II (LG 14, AG 7), Dominus Iesus 20, extra ecclesiam nulla salus as explained by popes and Church Councils in the ordinary and extraordinary mode etc.

    Bishop Kevin Rhoades offers Holy Mass when it is a mortal sin to reject an ex cathedra dogma. He denies Church teachings on other religions and yet calls himself a ‘Catholic.

    He uses his office to tell those who are faithful to the very teachings he rejects, not to use the word Catholic i.e apologists Robert Sungenis and Michael Voris.

    The denial of the faith is there in the four points he mentions to Michael Forrest on the website Robert Sungenis and the Jews. http://sungenisandthejews.blogspot.com/2008/02/bishop-rhoades-sets-record-straight_21.html

    The Canon Lawyer from Indiana who has said that the jurisdiction over the Real Catholic.TV.com lies in the diocese of Fort-Wayne South Bend where Marc Brammar the owner of Real Catholic TV.com lives, could also let us know if Bishop Kevin Rhoades has the right to juridically call himself a Catholic and to offer Holy Mass.
    -Lionel Andrades

    BISHOP KEVIN RHOADES DENIES THE CATHOLIC FAITH
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/bishop-kevin-rhoades-denies-catholic.html

    JEWISH CATHOLIC DAY OF REFLECTION TODAY
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/jewish-catholic-day-of-reflection-day.html

    Will Bishops Allen Vigneron and Kevin Rhoades give permission for a website against Michael Vorris?
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/will-bishops-allen-vigneron-and-kevin.html

    Questions for the Canon Lawyers:Can Archbishop Allen Vigneron and Bishop Kevin Rhoades be considered Catholic if they refuse to affirm in public the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/questions-for-canon-lawyers-can.html

    It’s a Free Country.. : A Catholic who rejects a defined dogma like outside the church no salvation is automatically excomunicated. He has no right to use the word ‘Catholic’.
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/its-free-country.html

  43. avatar annonymouse says:

    I look forward to spending some quiet time with the Council’s documents, refuting Lionel’s points in detail, but I would quickly point out to him that the Roman Catholic Church holds as valid the baptisms of our non-Catholic Christian brethren. Now why would that be, if we truly believe they are all doomed to hell? Or is that another mistake (if not heresy) of our leadership?

    And Lionel, are you not guilty of idolatry by your worship of the Catholic Church rather than Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ? While Christ lives in the Church, which is His Body, the Church is NOT the Christ the Lord, whom alone you should worship!

    And I must say, the harsh, unloving, unforgiving God that I infer from all your posts is not very attractive. I don’t expect you’ll win too many converts with the “convert or burn” tack. I know many faithful (but hell-bound, apparently) non-Catholic Christians who are more faithful and committed followers of Our Blessed Lord than many “saved” Catholics!

    But I must say, this thread raises an important issue – what is the place of apologetics and evangelization in a Church that teaches (rightly or wrongly) that all may be saved, whether in or out.

    But back to the original point of this thread, before it was hijacked – the Bishops retain the right to the name “Catholic” and the faithful, including Michael Voris, ought to respect that. Change the name, Michael.

  44. avatar Lionel says:

    Anonymouse
    the Roman Catholic Church holds as valid the baptisms of our non-Catholic Christian brethren. Now why would that be, if we truly believe they are all doomed to hell? Or is that another mistake (if not heresy) of our leadership?

    Lionel:
    Even a non Catholic baptizing in an emmergency is accepted as valid.

    AD Gentes 7 Vatican Council II says Catholic Faith and the baptism of water are needed for salvation (for adults). Protestants and Orthodox Christians do not have Catholic Faith, they do not interpret the Gospel as do Catholics.Protestants live in mortal sin with no access to the Sacraments. Orthodox Catholics are in schism. Over centuries great differences have emerged in faith and moral teachings.The Church says they all need to enter the Church with Catholic Faith for salvation.

    It could be similar to a Catholic friend or relative who has had the baptism of water and even Catholic Faith but is living in mortal sin.

    BELLARMINE DOCTRINE SAME AS THE VATICAN COUNCIL II DOCTRINE

    I was at the tomb of St. Robert Bellarmine at the church Chiesa di San Ignazio, Rome Wednesday, January 18, 2012 and I was thinking how the Bellarmine Doctrine was the same as the Vatican Council II doctrine.Outside the Church there is no salvation.

    Near by at another Jesuit Church off the Via del Corso those who meet on Sunday mornings for Holy Mass reject this teaching of St. Robert Bellarmine and Vatican Council II.

    They reject a dogma and teaching on salvation which every Catholic needs to believe in. The priest offers Mass there denying the Faith. There are not only Jesuits offering Mass here at the Church San Francesco Xavier in Caravita but also priests from other communities.

    They will probably pray for Christian Unity without saying that non Catholics, Christians, are on the way to Hell. This is the Vatican Council II doctrine.

    Protestants, Evangelicals, Orthodox Christians do not have Catholic Faith , which includes the interpretation of the Gospel according to the Catholic Church, even though they are baptized with the baptism of water. They are heretics and schismatics (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence).

    It is not enough to believe in Jesus one also has to do the Will of God the Father and enter the Catholic Church (CCC 845).-Lionel Andrades

  45. avatar Lionel says:

    Anonymouse
    And Lionel, are you not guilty of idolatry by your worship of the Catholic Church rather than Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ? While Christ lives in the Church, which is His Body, the Church is NOT the Christ the Lord, whom alone you should worship!

    Lionel:
    I write on this issue because the Church is ignored and Jesus is proclaimed without the Church today.

    We cannot separate Jesus from the Church. The Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus. This is the teaching of Scripture, Vatican Council II, Dominus Iesus etc.

    Anonymouse

    And I must say, the harsh, unloving, unforgiving God that I infer from all your posts is not very attractive. I don’t expect you’ll win too many converts with the “convert or burn” tack. I know many faithful (but hell-bound, apparently) non-Catholic Christians who are more faithful and committed followers of Our Blessed Lord than many “saved” Catholics!

    Lionel:
    God is good and forgiving and merciful for those who seek mercy while still on earth.However Hell is an unpleasant subject. It is terrible to know that there are millions of people who do not avail of the mercy of God in the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. They refuse mercy when it is offered to them on earth and worship God as they want to.

    The Catholic Church teaches that it is not enough just to have faith in Jesus one must also do the Will of God, to live as God wants all people to live.God wants all people to be united in the Catholic Church (CCC 845), the Church is the only Ark of Noah that saves in the Flood(CCC 845).God wants all people to live according to certain moral and faith rules for salvation and these are known and taught for centuries in only the Catholic Church.

  46. avatar Lionel says:

    Anonymouse
    the Bishops retain the right to the name “Catholic” and the faithful, including Michael Voris, ought to respect that. Change the name, Michael.

    Lionel

    the Bishops retain the right to the name “Catholic” and the faithful, including Michael Voris, ought to respect that. Change the name, Michael.

    The laity also retain the right to have their bishop not offer Holy Mass in manifest mortal sin. Should not the bishop of Forth Wayne South Bend respect this ?
    Should he not respect the Eucharist ?

    The Nicene Creed we pray, ‘I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin.’ There is one baptism, the baptism of water which removes Original Sin.It is given to adults with Catholic Faith.

    Bishop Kevin Rhoades is unable to say that Jews need to convert into the Church for salvation and he is unable to affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Yet he offers Mass and can call himself ‘a Catholic’.

    St.Teresa of Avila and St.Faustina Kowalski tell us that Jesus is in pain when being received in the Eucharist at Holy Mass by a Catholic in mortal sin.

    I have written to the bishop and this issue is out on the internet he will not affirm the Faith.

  47. avatar Lionel says:

    Anonymouse

    THE ISSUE IS ALSO THE EUCHARIST IN THE DIOCESE OF FORT WAYNE SOUTH BEND, INDIANA

    The issue is also the Eucharist in the diocese of Fort Wayne South Bend, Indiana, USA.Does the bishop have the right to offer Holy Mass according to Canon Law? Is the Mass he offers a public sin?

    He is denying the Nicene Creed and the Athanasius Creed.He is also not affirming the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and is putting aside Dominus Iesus and other magisterial texts including Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14).This is public manifest heresy, of the first class, it entails the Creed.

    In this sin the bishop has the right to offer Holy Mass and canonically call himself a ‘Catholic’ ?

    The issue is the Eucharist. Canon Law does not permit the bishop to offer Holy Mass or receive the Eucharist.

    I am just a layman. I am not judging him. I am just pointing out to what the Church teaches.The teaching of the Church is the same for priests, bishops, cardinals and the pope.The Sacrament of Reconciliation is available for all.

    He can answer the five questions asked of him.
    1. Bishop Kevin Rhoades is denying an ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Outside the Church No Salvation). http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation

    2. He is refusing to say that Judaism and other religions are not paths to salvation.

    3. He is refusing to say that Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation (to avoid Hell).

    4. The Bishop in Indiana is assuming that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are defacto known to us in the present times, since he considers them exceptions to the dogma and other magisterial teachings.

    5. Bishop Kevin Rhoades is assuming that there is some magisterial text which claims that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are defacto exceptions to the dogma outside the church there is no salvation.

    Are not prayers of reparation needed here?
    -Lionel Andrades.

    CANON LAWYER IN INDIANA NEEDS TO BE ASKED : IS BISHOP KEVIN RHOADES JURIDICALLY A CATHOLIC?
    Evidence of the Fort Wayne Bend bishops denial of the Catholic Faith is on a website.

    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/canon-lawyer-in-indiana-needs-to-be.html

    BISHOP KEVIN RHOADES DENIES THE CATHOLIC FAITH
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/bishop-kevin-rhoades-denies-catholic.html

    JEWISH CATHOLIC DAY OF REFLECTION TODAY
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/jewish-catholic-day-of-reflection-day.html

    Will Bishops Allen Vigneron and Kevin Rhoades give permission for a website against Michael Vorris?
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/will-bishops-allen-vigneron-and-kevin.html

    Questions for the Canon Lawyers:Can Archbishop Allen Vigneron and Bishop Kevin Rhoades be considered Catholic if they refuse to affirm in public the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/questions-for-canon-lawyers-can.html

    It’s a Free Country.. : A Catholic who rejects a defined dogma like outside the church no salvation is automatically excomunicated. He has no right to use the word ‘Catholic’.
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/its-free-country.html

    ERRORS IN THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: OUTSIDE THE CHURCH NO SALVATION
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/search?q=Errors+in+the+Catechism+of+the+Catholic+Church

    ERRORS IN THE CATECHISM?
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/search?q=Errors+in+the+Catechism+of+the+Catholic+Church

    In the Catechism of the Catholic Church why did Cardial Joseph Ratzinger not mention that the baptism of desire is not a defacto exception to the dogma outside the church no salvation nor to Vatican Council II?
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/in-catechism-of-catholic-church-why-did.html

  48. avatar BigE says:

    @lionel

    now you’re getting way out there….

    1) Where was “no salvation outside the Catholic Church” ever declared ex cathedra?

    2&3) Pope John Paul told Catholics to stop evangelizing our Jewish brothers and sisiters. I suppose that means he can’t claim be be Catholic either?

    4&5) Your logic that there is no salvation outside the church because we don’t know of anyone saved that way must also mean that there is no hell, because we don’t know of anyone specifically in hell either.

    You’re too much.

  49. avatar Dr. K says:

    “Pope John Paul told Catholics to stop evangelizing our Jewish brothers and sisiters”

    That’s a pretty ridiculous demand considering Christ said to make disciples of all nations. I assume he was including the Jews in this.

  50. avatar Lionel says:

    Big E.
    1)Where was “no salvation outside the Catholic Church” ever declared ex cathedra?

    Lionel:
    It was defined three times by Church Councils which included the pope and the bishops.
    It was affirmed many times by the popes in the ordinary mode so it makes it an authoritative statement.

    2&3) Pope John Paul told Catholics to stop evangelizing our Jewish brothers and sisiters. I suppose that means he can’t claim be be Catholic either?

    Lionel:
    Please cite the text you are referring to or interpreting.
    Pope John Paul II gave us Dominus Iesus which says all mankind needs to enter the Church for salvation. This includes Jews.There are other magisterial documents issued by Pope John Paul with the same message. Ecclesia di Eucarestia for instance has the ecclesiology of outside the church there is no salvation. Non Catholics cannot receive the Eucharist.

    It also says that those Catholics who are in mortal sin and who receive the Eucharist will bring condemnation upon them. Would it also apply to bishops in mortal sin ?

    4&5) Your logic that there is no salvation outside the church because we don’t know of anyone saved that way must also mean that there is no hell, because we don’t know of anyone specifically in hell either.
    This is not my logic.
    We know there is Hell because the Church says so. We know there is no salvation outside the Church because the Church says so.
    It is when the salvation dogma is denied and people say that there can be non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance it needs to be said that we do not know anyone saved in this way and so it is not an exception to a church teaching.

  51. avatar Raymond F. Rice says:

    Lionel:

    I am jusr curious? Why do you try to chain God and make Him follow your rules??

  52. avatar Lionel says:

    We Catholics believe that God the Father wants all people to be united in the Catholic Church (CCC 845) and this is the only Church Jesus founded and in which He wants all people to enter with faith and the baptism of water (John 3:5).Those who knowingly reject this Church will be condemned.(Mark 16:16).
    We believe the Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus, inspite of all of us sinners. Only this Church, this Mystical Body has the moral right to say what God wants, teaches and prefers.
    This Church teaches that God wants all people to be saved. He wants all people to come to Heaven and the means He chose is the Catholic Church.

  53. avatar Lionel says:

    Sunday, January 29, 2012
    TALMUDIC JEWS HAVE A BLASPHEMOUS OPERA IN ITALY
    Oppression of Catholics continue

    Popes and saints have opposed attacks of the Talmudic Jews on the Catholic Church. Today the evil seems unopposed. The Talmud which blasphemes Jesus and Our Lady is being translated into Italian by the Italian Ministry of education. Rabbi Ricardo Segni, the chief leftist Rabbi in Rome, is on the committee overseeing the translation.From January 24 to 28 at the theatre Parenti in Milan a blasphemous opera was held.It had the support of the Jewish Left media. The opera Sul concetto di volto nel figlio di Dio, Romeo Castellucci does not come under hate laws created by the Jewish Left, the ADL etc. The staging of this opera in Milan known for its blasphemous scenes when staged abroad, is part of the religion of the Talmudic Jews. The director of the Parenti theatre it is reported, is a Jew, Ruth Shammah.

    Blasphemy is part of the beliefs of members of the Bnai Brit, Italy who have threatened Catholic academics and universities with criminal charges, for only affirming Catholic teaching. They object to the Catholic teaching which says Judaism and other religions are not paths to go to Heaven and that Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell; for salvation. (Dominus Iesus 20, CDF, Notification on Fr. Jacques Dupuis S.j etc). The Rabbis visited the Urbaniana Pontifical University in Rome.

    The Jewish Left values and the opera in Milan represent Satan and were not criticized by the Jewish Left.

    The opera in Milan against the belief in God with its accompanying blasphemy, in the arts and media, is a part of Talmudic Judaism, the religion of the Freemasons and the Jewish Left. It is the religion of those who choose to serve Satan instead of God.

    Those who oppose the Talmudic Jews, the Satanists, Freemasons and the Kabbalists are threatened with anti Semite laws.It is anti Semitic to be a Catholic.

    Jesus called a type of Jews, children of the devil and ‘snakes and vipers’.He spoke about the ‘synagogue of Satan’.

    The owner of the adult film industry in the USA is a Jew and also blasphemes against Jesus it is reported on the internet.Recently there was a Catholic Jewish Left Day of Reflection in Rome. Maintaining dialogue and ‘having good relations with the Jews’ means not being victimized by the political and military threat of Israel and the Jewish Left. In exchange, the Catholic Church has to change its teaching in ecumenism (no ecumenism of return) and Judaism and other religions (they do not have to convert and all religions are equal).Restrictions are placed on the Catholic Traditional Latin Mass which is vehemently opposed in the leftist mainstream media in Italy.

    The price of ‘good relations’ is the creating of a culture with blasphemy,atheism and hate enforced with legal blackmail and extortion, against the followers of Jesus Christ, whom Satan hates.

    The anti Semitism threat is being used against Catholic bishops to make them announce that those who are faithful to Jesus and His Church are not Catholics. Catholics are being asked by the Jewish Left not to use the word ‘Catholic’. Satan is a liar and his actions are covert.

    Those Catholics who rebel could be ruined financially. So Catholics do not want to talk about this issue in public. They just mention the ‘liberals’ and not the Jewish Left threat to ‘liberal Catholics’ to remain liberal.

    I was studying at a Pontifical University and seminary in Rome but could not continue my studies since they have to protect themself from Jewish Left laws. The faculty was being opposed by ‘outsiders’ because of my official Catholic views. My Spiritual Director was being telephoned and finally he asked me to search for a new Spiritual Director. This priest himself would have to leave the seminary.

    Pontifical universities in Rome welcome students with liberal views, freethinkers and New Agers, those opposed to Church teachings. Those who hold the Catholic teachings are threatened and expelled. This is done often with the approval of the Vatican including the former Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The cardinals and bishops want to maintain ‘goof relations’ with the Jewish Left and their Catholic supporters like Andrea Riccardi and the St. Egidio organization.

    Prayers of Reparation were held on January 23 by the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate Benevento and Il Camino dei Tre Sentieri. Protests were held outside the theatre by Catholic political organizations Nuova Forza, Militia Christi and others.-Lionel Andrades

    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/talmudic-jews-have-blasphemous-opera-in.html

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