Cleansing Fire

Defending Truth and Tradition in the Roman Catholic Church

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Sr. Pat on Sexual Ethics (part 3)

July 12th, 2010, Promulgated by benanderson

So far in this series, we’ve gotten some great insights and discussions in the comments. I thank all the comment contributors for that and hope that you keep it up. I’m no expert theologian or anything. I’m just a guy who has read a few Church documents and scratch my head when I hear Church leaders teach something to the contrary. I think Gen mentioned somewhere, “don’t shoot the messenger, people, we’re only regurgitating what YOUR Church teaches.”

I’ll also note that we don’t claim to be any holier than anyone else (Sr. Pat, Bishop Clark, etc). Often times here at CF, we get accused of having a holier-than-thou attitude. Actually, I believe it’s quite the contrary. An analogy used by Catholic Answers Patrick Coffin (I think first proposed by Frank Sheed) when Protestants say Catholicism isn’t true because they personally know some Catholics who aren’t very Christian, “don’t judge the medicine by the people who don’t take it.” Extending this medical analogy a little further, I’d say that we here at CF are simply people who are acknowledging that we are sick. We are in need of a doctor. We have taken the medicine and it is good. We can attest to the change the good doctor has brought about in our lives and we wish to share that medicine with the world. This is the paradox of Christianity. More than any other religion, Christianity recognizes that man has been mortally wounded. GK Chesterton says that original sin is the only provable Christian doctrine. The story, however, doesn’t end there. God has offered us His son and by accepting his saving grace we have the opportunity of allowing Him to transform us into His likeness. This grace is not merely imputed as Luther believed, but it is infused into our very nature. This transformation starts while we are here on earth. So the paradox is that Christ calls us to what seems like the impossible:

Mark 8:31-38
34Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35For whoever wants to save his life[c] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? 37Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

but He always gives us the grace to follow His will:

Matthew 11:29-30
29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

A few more random observations before we jump into the audio… I’ve been pondering how the Gospel changes if one were to concede to the world on moral issues and cower away from tasks that might seem difficult on the outside. I offer you a few analogies. You can make up your mind whether these might relate or not.

Blind Man: “Sir, I cannot see”
Jesus: “Stand up, walk, and hold your head up high for you have no need of sight. You are just fine the way you are.”

The apostles response to the Holy Spirit at Pentecost:
“No, Holy Spirit, we can’t possibly do what you’re suggesting. That sounds much too difficult. Have you really thought this through?”

Here’s a clip from the 2nd hour of the 07/02 show of CA Live I thought relevant:

One of the ways I feed myself spiritually is by listening to the mass readings via podcast. Each day (especially today) as I’m listening I think, “wow! this is so fitting to our situation here in Rochester.” Isn’t it funny how scripture, when taken as a whole, can really illuminate everything?

Forgive me for going on and on. As both anon and Richard mentioned, it’s like “shooting fish in a barrel”. We could spend all day pointing out her errors, but alas, onto the next clip. Don’t forget as you listen to this that this is your CMA money hard at work and that this is the president of St. Bernard’s, the person responsible for educating many of our diocesan leaders.

questions not just w/in the Catholic church, but also the anglican church, the presbyterian church, the methodist church…

Everyone else is doing it, so why don’t we? I’ll also note that splits in these churches is the Catholic Church’s glory. Jesus prayed that they all may be one. The more they split, the more convincing the Catholic Church becomes.

sexually mature at 13

Just because you can means you should?

maybe fornication is ok if it’s between two people who intend to get married

“Far graver is it to corrupt the faith that is the life of the soul than to counterfeit the money that sustains temporal life.” -St. Thomas Aquinas

more talented adults go to grad school and so on

I think it’s debatable whether the more talented people go on to grad school or whether those people aren’t ready to start life 🙂 Ok – that’s a gross over-generalization, but I think our society too often gives credence to people with long titles.

Eventually this session opens up with to some questions. I’ll be discussing some of these questions and comments as we move along. To make it easier to write out, I’ll assign names to a couple of the voices in the crowd. The voice of the “are we ever?” response as to when are we psychologically and economically ready to get married, we’ll call BDA (bull-dog-apologist) for short. His wife can attest to the truth in the “are we ever?” comment.

marriages used to only last 15 years. Now they are lasting much longer

Let no man put asunder. The God-man creator of the universe couldn’t have anticipated this.

we all recognize marriages break down

Marriages don’t break down. People break down. There are a million and one resources out there now to build up marriages. I’ve included a video below of just one of these. Marriage can be difficult (I know), but God can help. He always does!

I teach from a book now….’Reason in search of faith” Richard Buller

I couldn’t find the man or his book with a quick google and amazon search. Anyone familiar?

the church has always taken as its primary source of human reason (natural law), but in the last 40 years the Church had to say, “moral theologians you ought to get a Bible and read it once in a while

Two falsehoods in one statement! The primary source of the Church is human reason? And she endorses the anti-Catholic myth that prior to V2 Catholics were discouraged to read the Bible. This is quit comical. Her theology is based on the fashions of the times and on an APA decision that was highly politicized, but since she’s trying to claim that the “old theology” was only based on natural law (and not the Bible), she tries to claim that the Bible was discouraged prior to 40 years ago. This is just getting pathetic.

BDA: Are you familiar with the theology of the body?

A little bit. Rooted in natural law and mainly in the physicality of sex.

No, actually JP2 drills much deeper than that. Get the book!

3 times now she’s mentioned the APA. I’m beginning to think perhaps she does believe in divine revelation – just from a different source.


Suggested Campfire Kindling: “Reason in search of faith” Richard Buller (sp?)

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18 Responses to “Sr. Pat on Sexual Ethics (part 3)”

  1. avatar Vox Clara says:

    I am sometimes astounded and disgusted at the openness and candor with which diocesan employees preach dissidence at diocesan events. This is one of those times. What does she mean in saying that the Church did not “listen to” or “heed” anybody in matters of human sexuality? What is she even thinking that the Church has any business letting any contemporary theory, scientific or otherwise, change her doctrines? Even if a positive biological benefit from unchastity could be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, it would still prove gravely sinful! I’ve seen it all before, but I find this audacity in outright heresy very distressing.

  2. avatar Anonymous says:

    Are 40somethings allowed to the theology on tap? I’d be happy to share my personal journey of suffering by embracing the dissenting view of human sexuality that she appears to be promoting. Too bad she lost an opportunity to bring one to the Truth and save souls. What a joy it is to live in God’s Grace. I will pray for her tonight….

  3. avatar Richard says:

    1. Wa wa wa. A “poor couple has been celebit for 30 years. They can’t abstain for 6 to 9 months for the peroid of their engagement. I almost want to cry! It seems that the new od of the Sr. Scholes crowd is the god of sex.

    2. Emotional life of people. Homosexuality is a disorder. In most cases it’s a reflection of serious emotional problems bewteen one or both parents and the child. Gay and lesbians attempt to find the love they never received from their parent(s) through the sexual encounters of similar sex adults but it never works. They can never find that love. So instead of attempting to heal the childhood hurt, they are now condoning abnormal sexual behavior….and risking their physical , emotional and spiritual health. And these heritics in the DOR are helping them to go to hell and contract serious sexually transmitted and are enabling them to continue destructive behavior Well, perhaps we can also celebtate abnormal emotional behavior exibited by alcoloholics fot that is the emotional life of people.

    And these people, especially the bishop are SO concerned about the spiritual, emotional and physical health of their sheep that they destroyed the Catholic Physician’s guild when the guild pointed out these issues, without mentioning any names. WHat a bunch of wolves!

  4. avatar Richard says:

    It souuld read…the new god of the Sr. Scholes’ crowd

  5. avatar Gen says:

    Just about gagged when the good sister replaced “seminary” with “theology school.”

  6. avatar Richard says:

    Why will this heresy fail?

    Because any outfit using coersion, dishonesty, vengence, suppression and disinguenity is NOT from God. And if it is not from god, it will fall flat on its face, lika ALL the other heresies.

    Can you imagine Jesus destroying groups, punishing people in this world for not believing in him (free will), trying to control questions to hide any doctrinal weaknesses. And our religious leaders ARE supposed to mirror Christ. Teey mirror the sewage treatment plant in Durand Eastman Park.

  7. avatar RochChaCha says:

    Ben – you are killing me with the snippets of this talk. Just when I get into it and start grasping the context of where Sr. Pat is going, the segment is over. Anyway you can post longer segments?

  8. avatar benanderson says:

    @RochChaCha – patience. I’m doing it in small segments so we all get a chance to digest and contemplate what is being said. I also want to give a proper response in my posts and this takes time. If these segments are driving you nuts, perhaps just ignore them until the completion when I’ll be posting the session in full. If you’re too antsy to wait, perhaps you could call up Sr. Pat and get a one-on-one session.

  9. avatar RochChaCha says:

    Ben,

    I’m too impatient to wait for you to post so I am just going to take Sr. Pat up on her offer and start attending St. Bernards School of DOR Theology that way we “can all be happy”.

  10. avatar Dr. K says:

    “If you’re too antsy to wait, perhaps you could call up Sr. Pat and get a one-on-one session.”

    Somehow that doesn’t sound like fun! 🙂

  11. avatar Richard says:

    Raa Cha Cha: It’s like going to the dentist office or having an operation without anesthesia.

    Who are the BIG losers of the sexual revolution of Sr. Scholes? Women. Plain and simple. Women have the risk of unwanted pregnancy, possible forced abortion and sterility. The men walk free. Men have a tendency not to be monomgamous. They need a public affirmation of a life long committment in front of family and friends to help make them sign up for life.

    What does premarital sex highlight? Drop the Judeo Christian prohibitions on premarital sex and all the perverts and women abusers come out, like we have seen today.

    Remember the television show: “The Jeffersons”? Florence had the greatest advice for premarital sex. Until he says I do, you don’t!

  12. avatar Nerina says:

    RochChaCha – having listened to the entire audio, I can tell you that Ben is actually doing the readers of the blog a great service by breaking it up into smaller pieces. When I finished, I could have written a dissertation on the half-truths, misstatements, and incomplete presentations of Church teaching. Just wait till Ben posts the part about interpreting Scripture or this quote from Sr. Pat: “I don’t believe God wrote the bible. The Bible doesn’t result from any direct act of God.” Honestly, she must have been completely exhausted from building and deconstructing straw men during the Q&A section of this talk.

  13. avatar RochChaCha says:

    Nerina,

    I’m partially just breaking chops with Ben. I was going to attend the TOT, but I later realized that my family vacation occurred at the same time. I was happy to hear that there was a recording of the event. I heard that there was another TOT last night that I would have loved to attend, but it’s too late now. I suppose I will have to pay closer attention to the schedule. I do appreciate the work that everyone on this site does and I am sure the next few installments will be worth it.

  14. avatar Richard says:

    Ra Cha Cha,

    I guess it is OK to go to these events but I hope that she answers your questions. Judging from her past responses, she is an expert in “wiggle room” Don’t give her any room to breath!

  15. avatar Nerina says:

    RochChaCha,

    I wanted to go to the event last night, but my schedule did not allow for it. I’m not sure I could remain charitable and sane at one of these presentations :).

  16. avatar benanderson says:

    @RochChaCha – no worries – bust away! I understand your hunger for Sr. Pat’s spiritual food.

    @Nerina – anyone who can go, should go. Having a voice (such as this blog) makes it easier to remain charitable.

  17. avatar Eliza10 says:

    “34Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”

    Sr. Pat is supposed to be teaching this. If she is gay or if her freinds are gay, she should know intimately this doctrine of denying self and therefore she SHOULD be a powerful witness to the glory of God. Instead, she is what she is. Listen to her.

    One cannot outgive God. Jesus promises: “My yoke is easy, my burden is light”. Sr. Pat and Bishop Clark and those so sympathetic to the heavy cross God asks homosexuals to carry that they think they can help them out by keeping God’s will a secret from them! They are so sympathetic to the “impossibility” of denying acting on “how God made me” (homosexual) that they are in fact doing the greatest possible abuse – spiritual abuse – to our homosexual community in Rochester by hiding the truth from them when they are the ones called by God to proclaim it. The souls of lost homosexuals will be on them, the grief homosexuals will bear in Purgatory for having not been taught the truth will be on them (and Gods Mercy will be on the homosexuals who were not given the hope due them), because they were the ones called to lead the flock into all truth. What damage they have done to souls!

    And by denying Courage in Rochester, Bishop Clark has made sure that witnesses to the poweer of God to give the great graces necessary, and that it is in fact the truth that Gods yoke is easy and his burden is light, because he provides the grace for what seems impossible.

    Is it impossible for a gay person to be chaste? Who then can possibly enter the kindgom of heaven?

    With God all things are possible.

    Sr. Pat and Bishop Clark are working hard to ensure that those enslaved to a homosexual lifestyle stay enslaved and do not hear the gospel.

    It is a horrible scandal.

  18. avatar Eliza10 says:

    Wow. The Ralph Martin clip. Something to touch the heat and set the mind on higher things! What a contrast to the words of Pat Shoeless, which reflect what I have seen around the DoR. Such shallow homilies! Nothing to feed the heart! No wisdom, no insight, just drivel disguised with clever words or homiletic format or as Sr. Pat shows here, some able teacher techniques.

    As I am re-listening to this awful clip, I am dismayed to see Sr. Pat KEEP referring to the Church as “They” instead of “We”. She is SUPPOSED to be Catholic; she is a Sister; she heads the Institute that Bishop Clark founded that he has Diosesan leaders train at. But she ACTS and SPEAKS like the Catholic Church is “They” instead of “Us”.

    Calling the Church “They” must make her feel less like a hypocrite that she is.

    How does she live with herself??

    Sr. Pat: “Maybe sex before marriage IS okay in certain circumstances… [people have college, etc.] – are they supposed to not have sex till they are 34, 35?…”

    Do you want Sr. pat teaching your teens?? Because she is teaching OUR TEENS! The teens of the DoR are OUR teens!

    Sr. Pat is ignorant about the virtue of Chastity. Chastity, in her eyes, is a cross rather than a gift.

    Why is this woman head of St. Bernards???

    Please, let the new Bishop fire her and her ilk immediately!

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