Cleansing Fire

Defending Truth and Tradition in the Roman Catholic Church


New Poll at Right

April 20th, 2010, Promulgated by Gen

Everyone is probably acquainted with the poll we have running perpetually at right. I know often times people vote jokingly, but I would humbly ask that you answer the poll genuinely. I think it would be very interesting to get a look into our own experiences of liturgical abuse, where we are, what we’ve done, whom we’ve written and so on. You are encouraged to select any options that suit you and your experience.

Please note, this does not count as filling out your 2010 Census. You should have sent that in already – if not, you will be visited by the SS US Census Bureau.



15 Responses to “New Poll at Right”

  1. avatar Christopher says:

    FYI, not to be the liturgy cop here, but before checking boxes you may want to read the following:

    Praying the Hail Mary during Mass might be considered liturgical abuse.

    10 Most common forms of Liturgical Abuse:

  2. avatar Gen says:

    The Hail Mary is said at OLV during the time of the intercessions, the "prayers of the faithful." To voice our prayers to Our Lord through the intercession of the Blessed Mother is not a liturgical abuse. Period.

    I have never counted any of that 10 in any of the handful of solid parishes in Rochester, be it OLV, STA, Holy Spirit, Latin Mass Community, Carmelite Monastery, or any other place, at least in my most humble experience. Thank God for that.

    My personal commentary on the 10:

    1. Changing the words of the Mass – VERY COMMON in Rochester, especially at parishes like Assumption.

    2. Interruptions – VERY COMMON in Rochester, especially when considering all the "cute" things we do: multiple little kids reading the intentions, youth groups appealing for money or support, etc . . .

    3. Omitting the penitential rite – I've never really encountered this in Rochester. One time the priest accidentally repeated it, but he was 85 and had forgotten to turn the page.

    4. Replacing or omitting the homily – VERY COMMON in Rochester. Two words: lay preaching. Two more words: not licit.

    5. Dictating Posture – OFTEN SEEN in Rochester, especially with priests such as Fr. Lawlor who even dictate posture for our young men at Becket Hall. He has them stand for the consecration.

    6. Forcing reception in the hand – Not common in Rochester, but I can't count the number of times a priest or lay person has glared at me for opening my mouth. "We don't do that here" is the general sentiment.

    7. Ignoring the rules for receiving Communion – COMMON in Rochester, but partially because of horrible catechesis.

    8. Holding hands at the Our Father – VERY COMMON in Rochester. I hate this, and it is wholly inappropriate for the Mass. It's the Mass, not some playground game for toddlers.

    9. Liturgical Dance – OBSCENELY COMMON in Rochester. Our Cathedral has it, people. That's just disgusting.

    10. Closing the holy water fonts – VERY COMMON in Rochester. It's some hippie notion of Lent which isn't real. The faithful have the undeniable right to sacramentals. How many fonts do we see clogged with sand and pebbles? Too many.

  3. avatar Christopher says:

    "The Hail Mary is said at OLV during the time of the intercessions, the "prayers of the faithful." To voice our prayers to Our Lord through the intercession of the Blessed Mother is not a liturgical abuse. Period."

    Gen, if you read through the forum post and Catholic answers reply the Hail Mary is a private devotion and considered "unfitting" for a public mass by them. I obviously understand the point Michelle is trying to make, whether you agree with it or not is up to you. Saying it is or is not liturgical abuse is subjective and debatable.

    Please read through the entire forum post to see Michelle's reasons for her initial statement.

    This may come as a surprise to cradle Catholics, and even to many converts, but there are some Catholics who otherwise submit to the Marian dogmas of the Church who are nonetheless uncomfortable engaging in Marian devotion. Their reasons for this discomfort vary, but they should not be pressured into prayers with which they are uncomfortable when the Church does not require it of them. To do so violates the legitimate freedom they have as Catholics not to engage in any particular private devotion that has not been made obligatory upon Catholics.

    Those who want to take part in public recitations of the Hail Mary should prevail upon their pastor to schedule a regular time, outside of Mass, to pray the rosary with likeminded parishioners. Priests who want to encourage Catholic devotion to Mary should make it a point to join the congregants at the scheduled parish rosaries (and are certainly free to promote the parish rosary and other parish Marian devotions in the bulletin, on the parish web site, and in letters to parishioners).

    I was concerned as you are which is why we asked the question 2 weeks ago on Calling all Catholics to Fr. Rick (who is very orthodox). He seemed to agree with the Catholic answers position as well.

    That said, OLV is a church I frequent and I personally have no major problem saying the Hail Mary in communion with others during the mass. I think there are much bigger issues found at other churches in Rochester as you stated above. However, that said, I do understand the "Catholic answers" position.

  4. avatar Matt says:

    The placement of the Hail Mary is part of the Prayers of the Faithful is absolutely, positively, 100% appropriate. This is a pointless debate. Of course, while I appreciate what they do, the CA Forums are rater notorious for particularly stupid questions. By comparison this one's almost reasonable.

  5. avatar Dr. K says:

    "there are some Catholics who otherwise submit to the Marian dogmas of the Church who are nonetheless uncomfortable engaging in Marian devotion. Their reasons for this discomfort vary, but they should not be pressured into prayers with which they are uncomfortable when the Church does not require it of them."

    Well, we better change the Eucharistic prayers, since they make specific reference to the Blessed Mother: "We honor Mary, the ever-virgin mother of Jesus Christ" (EP I), "make us worthy to share eternal life with Mary, virgin mother of God" (EP II), "with Mary, the virgin mother of God" (EP III), and "in the company of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God" (EP IV).

    I understand what you're getting at Christopher. Personally, I would have the Leonine prayers recited after Mass. However, I do not see the Haily Mary as an issue since it is recited as part of the prayers of the faithful. We are asking the Blessed Mother to "pray for us sinners", which makes the prayer fitting in this part of the Mass.

    ~Dr. K

  6. avatar Christopher says:


    1) Whether you consider it 100% appropriate is 100% your opinion. That does not change the FACT that it is a private devotion according to Catholic answers who I'm assuming has some authority given to them. Yes, Catholic answers could be wrong, but I think we can agree it's unlikely.

    2) Clearly it is uncomfortable for you as it is for me and I think that IS the point. Clearly this statement makes me uncomfortable:

    "As others have pointed out, my concern is with the unauthorized mixing of private devotions into the public worship of the Mass. No one, even a priest acting on his own, may alter the liturgy of the Mass on his own initiative, no matter how good an idea he may find it to be."

    It was uncomfortable enough for me to submit the question to Fr. Rick Poblocki to gather a 2nd opinion.

    3) The questions CA Forums have "stupid questions" because we have uneducated Catholics such as myself. I goto that site to get educated and to learn how to educate others. I would like to think I am going to a good trustworthy source for information.

    While I know most of you want to strangle me for bringing this to your attention. I am only reposting what I have read from an "authorized" Catholic apologist which was quite alarming to say the least.

  7. avatar Christopher says:

    Dr. K, good point. Why is the Hail Mary considered a "private" devotional prayer if it says "Pray for US"…using "US" implies it could be said in a communal setting, no?

  8. avatar Gen says:

    To say that the Hail Mary is private is absolutely ludicrous. As you pointed out, Chris, it says "us." It's not done in an impious manner, and it certainly does not detract from the Mass. Some of these people find fault with the most insignificant little things, and then write about them to seem important. Well, in my most humble opinion, no one's important until they posess a Masters of Divinity from St. Bernard's School of Theology and Ministry. 😛

  9. avatar Sr. Joan Sobala says:

    How about if you're pope Joan?

  10. avatar Christopher says:

    Apparently we misunderstand how the term "private" is being used here.

    This question was RE-asked and re-answered slightly differently.

    "I hesitate to say that praying the Hail Mary is "unfitting," and it is not the prayer itself or devotion to the Blessed Mother that is unfitting. What is "unfitting" is imposing upon the freedom of the assembled congregation to participate in a public recitation of the Hail Mary when it is a private devotion that is not part of the public prayers of the Mass. The congregation was assembled for the Mass (obligatory worship), not for a public recitation of the rosary (a private devotion), and so it is possible that some present were not prepared to pray the Hail Mary and should not have felt pressured to do so.

    It is important that private devotions not be introduced into the public prayers of the Mass on the unauthorized initiative of any individual, including a priest. If the Church decides to include a private devotion in the liturgy of the Mass — as it once did when the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel was prayed at the end of Mass before the reform of the liturgy — then the Church, in its authoritative office, may do so and the worshipping congregation should join in. But individuals, even priests, should not presume to introduce such private devotions on their own."

    Apparently praying the Hail Mary is "optional" for a Catholic until imposed on us via Rome. Because of this, it should not be imposed. Using Marian language in the consecration is not optional by Church law.

  11. avatar Anonymous says:

    It has often been posited here that the personal adoption of the orans position is a liturgical abuse by the laity because it is not prescribed by the rubrics. Could not the same thing be said about the addition of the Hail Mary to the Prayers of the Faithful? While I have no problem with either practice, neither is found in the GIRM.


  12. avatar Dr. K says:

    Fr. McNamara on this topic:

    "Some other readers asked about the practice of reciting the Hail Mary during the Prayer of the Faithful.

    While this custom is not universal, it seems to have its roots in English liturgical practice from even before the Second Vatican Council. One reader suggested that a document exists impeding this practice, but I have been unable to find it. I would say that, barring some authoritative intervention, the practice could continue where it has been customary to do so.

    The objections to the use of the Hail Mary are usually based on the principle that liturgical prayers are practically always directed to the Father, and on rare occasions to the Son.

    However, when the Hail Mary is used in the Prayer of the Faithful she is not addressed directly but is usually invoked as a mediator to carry our prayer to the Father within the context of the communion of saints.

    This invocation is certainly unnecessary from a liturgical standpoint, and it is probably better not to introduce it where it does not exist. However, I do not believe it needs to be forbidden where already well established."

  13. avatar Gen says:

    The orans position is not a liturgical abuse perpetrated by the laity. It's just showy and looks silly, and has no basis in liturgical norms. The recitation of the Hail Mary is a humble gesture, unnecessary, but welcome where it has been a custom for many years. It is not showy, it is not silly. It's not an abuse. There's a difference between the laity assuming the posture of a priest and the laity reciting a prayer with him, and a 10 second Marian one at that.

  14. avatar Anonymous says:

    I noticed at Mass in a nearby diocese that the deacons still say "let us proclaim the mystery of faith," do not kneel for the Consecration, and are given the Host to consume simultaneously with the priest. When the new GIRM came out a few years ago, our deacon stopped doing all of those things. The DOR, apparently, has more diligently cared for the Liturgy than her sister diocese.

  15. avatar Honorious IV says:

    In some aspects, yes. In most aspects, not so much.

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