Cleansing Fire

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Georgetown: Lapsi Loose Again

May 4th, 2012, Promulgated by Diane Harris

Kathleen Sebelius to Speak at Georgetown Commencement Ceremony

The Cardinal Newman Society has asked that the following message be shared with the Faithful, and all encouraged to sign onto their petition.  The headline says it all.  Just as the Lapsi (lapsed Christians) during earlier persecutions caused the martyrdom of others, their new abandonment of the Faith endangers those who stand by Christ.  The CNS has written the following:

“In what can only be interpreted as a direct challenge to America’s Catholic bishops, Georgetown University has announced that “pro-choice” Catholic Kathleen Sebelius, Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) and lead architect of the Obama administration’s assault on religious freedom through the HHS contraception mandate, has been invited to speak at one of Georgetown’s several commencement ceremonies.

The Cardinal Newman Society has posted a petition to protest this outrage here: GeorgetownScandal.com.  It has also alerted Washington Cardinal Donald Wuerl and sent a letter to Georgetown President John DeGioia urging him to immediately withdraw the invitation.

Last week The Cardinal Newman Society released a list of 11 scandalous commencement speakers at Catholic colleges and universities, as well as a report on homosexual “lavender graduations” including one at Georgetown.

The nation’s oldest Catholic and Jesuit university has chosen to honor Sebelius by granting her a prestigious platform at its Public Policy Institute commencement ceremony, despite her role as the lead architect of a healthcare mandate that will force Catholic institutions to pay for contraception, abortifacients and sterilization against their religious beliefs. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has termed the mandate “an unwarranted government definition of religion” that is “alien both to our Catholic tradition and to federal law,” “a violation of personal civil rights” and “a mandate to act against our teachings.”

But Secretary Sebelius’ record on abortion is at least as troubling as the mandate. When Governor of Kansas, Sebelius supported abortion rights and vetoed pro-life legislation.  In 2008, Archbishop Joseph Naumann of Kansas City reportedly told Sebelius, a Roman Catholic, to stop receiving the Eucharist until she publicly recants her position on abortion and makes a ‘worthy sacramental confession.'”

Read more about Catholic graduation scandals here, involving the following schools, alphabetically:  Bellarmine University, Boston College Law School, Gonzaga University, John Carroll University, Loyola Marymount University’s Law School, Loyola University in New Orleans, Mt. St. Mary’s College in California, St. Joseph’s College in Connecticut, St. Mary’s College in Indiana, University of Notre Dame, and University of San Francisco, all “Catholic” colleges.  

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33 Responses to “Georgetown: Lapsi Loose Again”

  1. avatar A Catholic says:

    I agree with the Cardinal Newman Society. It’s unbelievable that Georgetown would select Sebelius. They couldn’t have found a more pro-abortion Catholic if they tried.

  2. avatar Lionel says:

    We are still with the basic issue, when that is rejected expect Catholics to reject abortion and other teachings of the Catholic Church.
    If Georgetown University and Cardinal Wurl will not affirm Vatican Council II (AG 7) and the dogma outside the church no salvation why expect them to do so on other issues.
    This is a general widespread problem within the Catholic Church. How many alleged Catholics on this website too are in dissent, knowingly or unknowingly.
    Here’s what I mean:-

    Pope Benedict, CDF oversight directly linked to the Novus Ordo priests rejection of Vatican Council II.

    They cannot affirm AG 7 since they believe LG 16 is an explicit exception and the Council contradicts itself.

    When was the last time you heard a Novus Ordo or SSPX priest during a homily say: all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water to avoid Hell (for salvation)? (AG 7). This is a rejection of Vatican Council II by priests who offer Holy Mass in the vernacular languages.

    Fr. Tim Finigan on the blog the Hermeneutic of Continuity will not even answer when asked if he knows any case of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16).

    The pope, cardinals and bishops assume wrongly that invincible ignorance is an explicit exception to AG 7 and the centuries old interpretation of the dogma, and not just an aphorism, extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

    Even the Society of St. Pius X which criticizes the Assisi interfaith meeting will not state that all the non Catholics participants were oriented to Hell. Since they assume, that those saved in invincible ignorance etc are known exceptions to the literal interpretation of outside the church no salvation.

    This is the Richard Cushing Error and Pope Benedict has expressed it in writing in the book Light of the World (Ignatius p.107).Cardinal Luiz Ladaria, the Secretary for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican (CDF) has made the same error in the theological paper Christianity and the World Religions 1997 (International Theological Commission).

    Since the Letter of the Holy Office 1940 and Cardinal Ottaviani could have also been guilty of this oversight.

    They could have assumed that Fr. Leonard Feeney was wrong for denying the baptism of desire etc since they assumed that this was an explicit exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus .

    This is a factual error of the CDF.We do not know any non Catholic saved with the baptism of desire etc.To claim that there are such cases is false. When repeated after being informed it is a lie. It becomes a sin.

    Fr. Anthony Cekada, formerly with the SSPX, condemned the communities of Fr. Leonard Feeney in the USA. He claimed that they have rejected the baptism of desire of the Council of Trent with their literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and so they are in mortal sin. He now refuses to apologize or admit that he was wrong but has removed the internet link with this false claim .

    The SSPX is selling a book written by Fr.Francois Laisney which says Fr. Leonard Feeney was condemned by the Holy Office for denying the baptism of desire.Fr. Francois Laisney assumes, like Pope Benedict, that the baptism of desire etc are relevant to the dogma i.e it’s known to us and so is an exception.

    The sedevacantists Most Holy Family Monastery (Dimond brothers) reject Vatican Council II and the pope, because of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They in turn reject the baptism of desire since they also assume it is explicit and would be an exception to the dogma outside the church there is no salvation. The CDF cannot correct the MHFM since the cardinals at the CDF them self make the same error. Neither can Catholics Answers, Catholics United for the Faith and so many other Catholic organisations, correct the sedevacantists.

    This is a general oversight throughout the Catholic Church.If you can misunderstand it and so get rid of a defined dogma why cannot you abandon the Church’s teachings on abortion…?

    -Lionel Andrades

  3. avatar DonCope says:

    I’m afraid that most of the “catholic” collages are catholic in name only. They are run like secular organizations. It appears that the administration of these collages are deliberately causing their demise as religious institutions. The church is being attacked from within.

  4. avatar Lionel says:

    The Cardinal Newman Society states :

    ‘It is scandalous and outrageous that America’s oldest Catholic and Jesuit university has elected to provide this prestigious platform to a publicly “pro-choice” Catholic who is most responsible for the Obama administration’s effort to restrict the Constitution’s first freedom — the right to free exercise of religion — while threatening the survival of many Catholic and other religious colleges and universities, schools, charities, hospitals and other apostolates.

    ‘Georgetown insults all Americans by this honor. The selection is especially insulting to faithful Catholics and their bishops, who are engaged in the fight for religious liberty and against abortion. The contrast is stark between Georgetown University and those faithful Catholic colleges and universities that have stood for faith and freedom.’

    ‘the fight for religious liberty and against abortion.’-CNS

    What about the issue of the Social Reign of Jesus Christ and the need for all political legislation (including the HHS political mandate on contraception)to be oriented to the teaching of the Catholic Church?

    It’s not mentioned by the CNS since it is obviously a non issue when you reject Vatican Council II (AG 7) and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus with alleged exceptions of the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance, as if these cases are known to us.

    If the CNS really believed in the dogma and AG 7 they would have a moral authority to demand that all legislation, including the HHS Mandate must be rooted in the teaching of the Gospel as interpretated by the Catholic Church. Since outside the church there is no salvation all legislation and political offices must be oriented towards Jesus Christ.

    But how can the CNS and the U.S bishops make this demand when the pope does not affirm the literal interpretation of the dogma ? When the pope assumes that there are explicit exceptions, then he can mention only the ‘common good’.

    Similarly the Society of St.Pius X believes that there are defacto exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and yet complains about Dignitatis Humanae, Vatican Council II’s position on religious freedom.

    So we are back to the basic issue.

    The solution is that the USCCB or even a few cardinals state the obvious in public i.e we do not know any case of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience, the baptism of desire etc. These cases are known in Heaven.They are known only to God.’
    Thats all.Thats all they have to say.

    Then Catholics will understand that that the literal interpretation of the dogma still stands. It means every one on earth needs to enter the Church for salvation.

    Abortion :
    It means that all the Protestants are going to Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church. So no Catholic can believe that a Protestant is going to Heaven even though she uses contraception and their religion permits abortion.

    Social Reign
    It means that the HHS Mandate needs to be based on the teachings of the Catholic Church since only within the Church there is salvation i.e every one needs to enter the Church. We accept the possibility(only) of a non Catholic being saved in invincible ignorance etc however none of these cases are known to us. So it is not an issue with respect to the dogma which says all need to convert into the Church.Neither does it contradict Vatican Council II (AG 7.

    Religious Freedom
    The U.S bishops’ present understanding of religious freedom is based on the secular concept. Due to the common oversight, shared also by the pope and the CDF, they cannot affirm the dogma and Vatican Council II(AG 7).So they have to reject the teachings on the Social Reign of Jesus.On abortion they are limited to speak about the natural law.Abortion is contrary to the natural law yes, but it is also a mortal sin and leads to Hell.

    The CNS mentions the right to free exercise of religion, this right should also include expressing the Kingship of Jesus Christ over all society; over all humanity and the affirmation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with Vatican Council II.

  5. avatar Raymond F. Rice says:

    Lionel!!

    I can’t seem to follow your arguments. What is your point???

  6. avatar militia says:

    I’m glad somebody asked because I couldn’t figure it out either. Maybe CNS is getting mixed up between Cardinal Newman Society and Catholic News Service? Is that possible?

  7. avatar Richard Thomas says:

    There are isolated Jesuits like Fr. Mitch Paqua but as a whole, that order has gone off the deep end. I guess that until reform of this order is inniated, we will have to wait for their members to die off.

  8. avatar Raymond F. Rice says:

    May the great Irish saint, Dymphna, pray for us.

  9. avatar Lionel says:

    Raymond F.Rice

    The HHS contraception mandate issue and Sebbelius’ support for abortion is not just an issue of religious freedom. There is much more.
    1.If the bishops, Catholics universities and CNS cannot affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and AG 7,Vatican Council II why expect Catholics to accept abortion and other teachings of the Catholic Church ?
    2.When one accepts the literal intepretation of the dogma and Vatican Council II(AG 7) a Catholic realizes that all political and social laws and rules must have Christ as their reference. It must be based on the Gospel as interpretated by the Catholic Church.
    This would aplly to the HHS mandate and other political issues in the USA.
    3.Since all non Catholics are oriented to Hell and there are no known exceptions it should be clear to Catholics that all Protestants and other non Catholics are going to Hell according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. So one cannot believe that Protestants can go to Heaven even though they use contraception and their religion permits them to abort.

  10. avatar Scott W. says:

    It has been noted by others before that while we are pleased that the bishops are pulling their head out of the fog on the HHS mandate, there is a little too much waving of the 1st Ammendment going on and even one bishop saying if I recall correctly that it has nothing to do with contraception. The problem is that overdoing the religious freedom angle, it comes off (unintentionally of course) as saying, “We Catholics have this kooky and irrational idea that contraception is bad. Don’t look at us, we wanted to overturn this back in the 60’s, but the old man Paul VI wouldn’t let us, so we are stuck with it, but we think there is something in the U.S. Constitution that forces Americans to allow us to be wing-nuts.” It would be nice if we would hear a bishop that didn’t act like he was ashamed of the teaching and say, “Contraception is evil. It desecrates the marital bond, offends against chastity, and is a menace to public morals. The State has no common-good interest in promoting it to say nothing of forcing religious institutions or individuals to materially support it.”

  11. avatar Raymond F. Rice says:

    “Since all non Catholics are oriented to Hell and there are no known exceptions”

    YOU ARE JUST PLAIN WRONG ON THIS POINT!!
    Case closed.

  12. avatar Lionel says:

    “Outside the Church there is no salvation” (extra ecclesiam nulla salus) is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith that was taught By Jesus Christ to His Apostles, preached by the Fathers, defined by popes and councils and piously believed by the faithful in every age of the Church. Here is how the Popes defined it:
    o “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
    o “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
    o “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
    http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation

    Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church’s preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself “by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.- Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II

    Lumen Gentium 16 does not contradict AG 7 since we do not know any exceptions mentioned in LG 16. We accept them as possibilities but cannot claim that they are explicit exceptions to the dogma or AG 7.

    Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.- LG 16

    So all non Catholics are oriented to Hell and there are no known exceptions”-unless you can cite any Church document. Otherwise it is ‘case closed’.

  13. avatar Lionel says:

    Militia

    Sebelius, Georgetown University and Cardinal Wurl could ask the Cardinal Newman Society who are you to tell us XYZ when you also do not affirm the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus salus and AG 7, Vatican Council II ?

    Assuming the CNS says that they do accept it then the next question to them is :

    Who are you to tell us XYZ when you also do not affirm the Church’s teaching on the Social Reign of Christ the King over all political legislation and society ?

    Here is the CNS petition. They could have added a few more paragraphs which I have included in bold type :

    Petition to Georgetown President DeGioia
    May 4, 2012

    Dear President DeGioia:

    It has come to the attention of The Cardinal Newman Society and the following signers that U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius has been granted the honor of speaking at the commencement [diploma] ceremony for Georgetown University’s Public Policy Institute on Friday, May 18. We strongly urge you to withdraw the invitation to Secretary Sebelius immediately.

    It is scandalous and outrageous that America’s oldest Catholic and Jesuit university has elected to provide this prestigious platform to a publicly “pro-choice” Catholic who is most responsible for the Obama administration’s effort to restrict the Constitution’s first freedom — the right to free exercise of religion — while threatening the survival of many Catholic and other religious colleges and universities, schools, charities, hospitals and other apostolates.

    Georgetown insults all Americans by this honor. The selection is especially insulting to faithful Catholics and their bishops, who are engaged in the fight for religious liberty and against abortion. The contrast is stark between Georgetown University and those faithful Catholic colleges and universities that have stood for faith and freedom.

    We also protest that Georgetown University and Cardinal Donald Wurl does not affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II and so the need for all political legislation to have Jesus Christ at its centre.

    Why should Obama and Sebelius expect us to accept legislation which is against our Catholic beliefs especially on the Social Reign of Christ the King.

    Sincerely,

    Patrick J. Reilly
    President

  14. avatar Raymond F. Rice says:

    Lionel:

    So ,if a little 12 year old girl or boy who has never heard of Christ and who accidently falls off of a cliff in remote Tibet and dies of his injuries, he or she goes to hell??

  15. avatar Lionel says:

    Raymond F. Rice

    I have mentioned above that we accept the possibility of someone in invincible ignorance etc being saved but cannot claim that they are explicit exceptions to the dogma or AG 7.
    These cases are known only to God.
    The ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (AG 7). The Church is necessary for salvation (to avoid Hell) Redemptoris Missio 55.
    In reality (defacto) we do not know any 12 year old girl…
    In theory, in principle we accept the possibility of such an exception.
    So we are back to the dogma that all need to convert into the Church to avoid Hell including all of them in Tibet.

  16. avatar militia says:

    Christ said “Be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” He didn’t add: “but don’t even bother trying until you can do the whole thing.” Such a demand in itself would have assured no one would even bother to try. Instead of open arms to encourage perfecting, it would have been a brick wall to discourage it. I am having trouble figuring out, Lionel, if you are open arms or a brick wall.

  17. avatar Dr. K says:

    “So ,if a little 12 year old girl or boy who has never heard of Christ and who accidently falls off of a cliff in remote Tibet and dies of his injuries, he or she goes to hell??”

    I don’t think we know the answer this one way or the other.

  18. avatar Richard Thomas says:

    I have enough trouble with my life. People are speaking this phrase like they know God. But who really knows what is given or not given to our protestant bretheren concerning the truths of the faith. The way some talk, the protestants have all been given the light and have universally rejected it. Let’s not go there.

  19. avatar Jim says:

    Jim. M. here: Dr. K., I believe that the 12 year old child in this case, would certainly not be condemned, unless in a rare instance, they deliberately, in full conscience, lived an evil life (hard to believe at this age) and were certainly aware that they were evil. I would say that the chances of this are pretty slim…..

  20. avatar Raymond F. Rice says:

    I get suspicious of groups who think thay have “captured” God and put Him in their own dogmatic chains!!

  21. avatar Thinkling says:

    If you are saved, you are saved by Christ. If Christ saves you, you are saved through Him. He is His Body. His Body is the Church.

    Next question.

    ——-

    There are two kinds of errors catholics fall into.

    The first is when the Church says “such-and-such is forbidden“, and the catholic says, “no, it is not“. Without loss of generality one can exchange “forbidden” with “compulsory”. Fellow Fr. McBrien and Sr. Joan are prone to this Error.

    The second is when the Church says “such-and-such is NOT forbidden” and the catholic says “such-and-such is compulsory“, or “such-and-such is NOT compulsory” and the catholic says “such-and-such is forbidden“. Michael Voris (e.g.) is a prime example of one prone to this error.

    Let us all strive to avoid both.

    ———

    Praise God for the North Carolina vote! And check it out: Cdl Dolan is on Twitter.

  22. avatar Lionel says:

    Author: militia
    Comment:
    Christ said “Be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” He didn’t add: “but don’t even bother trying until you can do the whole thing.” Such a demand in itself would have assured no one would even bother to try. Instead of open arms to encourage perfecting, it would have been a brick wall to discourage it. I am having trouble figuring out, Lionel, if you are open arms or a brick wall.

    Lionel:
    Perfection is a grace and a response to it. I am open to that.

  23. avatar Lionel says:

    Dr.K

    “So ,if a little 12 year old girl or boy who has never heard of Christ and who accidently falls off of a cliff in remote Tibet and dies of his injuries, he or she goes to hell??”

    I don’t think we know the answer this one way or the other.

    Lionel:
    In reality we do not know this case and so cannot judge. You are right.
    In principle we can accept the possibility of someone being saved in ignorance etc.

  24. avatar Lionel says:

    Richard Thomas

    The Catholic Church teaches that the Protestant religion is not a path to salvation.(AG 7 etc).They have a valid baptism but do not have Catholic Faith.

  25. avatar Lionel says:

    Raymond F. Rice says:
    I get suspicious of groups who think thay have “captured” God and put Him in their own dogmatic chains!!

    Lionel:
    This is the official teaching of the Catholic Church. Not of any particular group.

  26. avatar Lionel says:

    Thinkling
    If you are saved, you are saved by Christ. If Christ saves you, you are saved through Him. He is His Body. His Body is the Church.

    Lionel:
    Correct. And this does not contradict the dogma or AG 7 which says all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

  27. avatar Lionel says:

    IS CARDINAL WUERL, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY AND THE CARDINAL NEWMAN SOCIETY AFRAID OF THE ANTI SEMITISM CHARGE?

    If you look at the religious books of the Jews and Muslims you can clearly see that they are people of the Old Testament. These Old Testament people teach an eye for an eye… Jesus tells us that we do not have to live this way. Catholics, the original Christians, are the people of the New Testament, the new people of God (Nostra Aetate 4, Vatican Council II), the Chosen People. The Catholic Church is the continuation and replacement of the Jewish religion.

    The Bible, Vatican Council II and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus teach us that outside the church there is no salvation and all people on earth with no exception need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water to avoid Hell-fires (for salvation).(John 3:5,Mk.16:16, As Gentes 7, Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441).

    Since all people need to enter the Church to avoid Hell it is necessary that all social and political institutions be obedient to the Holy Father and create laws and rules according to the Gospel as interpreted by the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls the Mystical Body of Christ. This is the Church we can see today, being hated by the world, especially the secular left, political and social instituitions that follow Satan with the promotion of abortion, euthanasia… They demand restrictions on the Catholic Church’s mission, proclamation and moral teachings.

    The Jewish Left media also falsely claim that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy and that those saved with the baptism of desire are known to us on earth and so they are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Social Kingship of Christ the King over all.

    Fr. Leonard Feeney and his community were personally persecuted. Fr. Leonard Feeney and Fr. Denis Fahey are considered anti Semitic for their traditional Catholic beliefs.

    More recently Lt. Cmdr. John Sharpe, a Catholic publisher affirmed the Social Kingship of Christ the King over secular institutions and was targeted as anti Semitic by the Jewish Left (SPLC etc). This was a prominent case. Other Catholics in the U.S Armed forces have also been targeted for their Catholic religious view. This is the dictatorship of the liberal left.

    In Italy they are represented by Rabbis Segni, Lara and others.

    Anti Semitism throught control laws are placed on all in the West.
    Blasphemy of Mohammad –thought control laws are placed on Christians and other non Muslims, in the East. They also apply to Qadianis (Mirzaites) who do not accept Muhammad as the last prophet but accept the other teachings of Muhammad. They are not allowed to proclaim Islamic beliefs (kalima) in public.Many are in jail.

    Both the people of the Old Testament are fighting for political domination throught the world.

    The Jewish Left are expected to take over Google and the rest of the Internet. These are the new fascists. The Catholic Church faces them and the followers of Muhammad. Persecutions will come from the people of the Old Testament-either way.

    If to affirm, the Kingship of Jesus Christ over all social and political institutions is anti Semitic according to the Jewish Left anti Semitism laws then I am an anti Semite.

    If it is Anti Semitism to affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II then I am an anti Semite since this is my Catholic Faith. Judaism and Mohammadism are not paths to salvation according to the Catholic Church. (Ad Gentes 7, Dominus Iesus 20 etc).

    If following Jesus is anti Semitic, or if Jesus himself is considered anti Semitic, then so am I. I love Jews, Muslims and other non Catholics for Jesus and do not consider myself anti Jewish or Muslim. However if politically I am accused of anti Semitism because of my Catholic Faith; in particular the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ,Vatican Council II (AG 7) and the Catholic Church teachings on the Social Kingship of Christ the King, then I plead guilty. This would be the leftist political definition of anti Semitism.
    -Lionel Andrades

  28. avatar Ben Anderson says:

    Thinkling said:

    The second is when the Church says “such-and-such is NOT forbidden” and the catholic says “such-and-such is compulsory“, or “such-and-such is NOT compulsory” and the catholic says “such-and-such is forbidden“. Michael Voris (e.g.) is a prime example of one prone to this error.

    I’m curious – do you have any specific examples of Voris doing this?

  29. avatar Thinkling says:

    >>specific examples of Voris doing this?

    Jimmy Akin had a podcast where he pointed out this type of error in a RCTV piece concerning kneeling during communion. I actually think it was linked from this site at one point.

    It is not that what he espouses is wrong, rather it is that what he condemns is not wrong. It is these types of errors I had in mind on this thread.

  30. avatar Hopefull says:

    I would like to see large parishes, with multiple Sunday Masses, take the lead and set aside ONE of the Masses for silence before and after Mass, and for proper dress. Signage at the doors should help (and explanation in the bulletin) but I wouldn’t throw out anyone inappropriate. Peer pressure (like ssshhh!) would be enough. Summer is a great time to start this practice, as moving the conversation outside is easier in good weather. Large churches often have meeting rooms or narthex’s to help with weaning Mass-goers off the need to yak while the priest is still processing down the aisle. AND the experiment just might show people choosing the quiet, reverent Mass. Worth a try?

  31. avatar Ben Anderson says:

    I actually think it was linked from this site at one point

    yes – and I posted it, but can’t recall the specific content without listening again:
    http://cleansingfire.org/2011/10/is-womens-ordination-a-heresy/

    IIRC, Voris was wrong about his reasoning (questioning bishops’ intentions on something), but I don’t remember him requiring anything of Catholics above what the Church requires. My usual take on Voris – his logic is often flawed, but the overall message is correct (and needs to be heard). I suppose it’s the difference of being scholarly, but not all that popular (ala First Things, Magisterial documents) versus being popular, a bit belligerent, and not without the occasional error (Voris and CleansingFire).

  32. avatar Raymond F. Rice says:

    “We also protest that Georgetown University and Cardinal Donald Wurl does not affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II and so the need for all political legislation to have Jesus Christ at its centre.”

    Lionel! We get the point!!!!!!!!


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